Sword Bag Query

[Griffin]

Hi all,

I only joined the Forum yesterday so apologies if you have covered this already but I have a few questions about sword bags. I am going to be joining a school soon and will be buying some nylon wasters to practice with.

I cannot walk around or get the bus to the classes with a sword in full view so wanted to know what people use to conceal and transport their swords.

Perhaps people could answer these questions for me:

1. I attended a Fight Camp in the past and saw many people using gun bags to store their swords. I see that red dragon have a sword bag for sale but what are most people using to carry their swords?

2. How many swords do you own and if more than one is it usually a long sword and a sabre or a waster and a metal blade?

3. How many swords would I need to take to classes? I imagine I need a waster, a Shinai and maybe a wooden dagger?

3. Fair enough that you carry your swords in a gun bag but what do you carry your gloves and mask in? A separate bag like a ruck sack or something?

Any advice you folk can give would be greatly appreciated.

Griffin

[Chris H]

I've been around the block many times with sword bags. I've tried as many as I could get my hands on, and now I use two bags. A fishing rod bag for swords, and an army kit bag for mask, gloves, gambeson, arm and elbow cops, kneeguards, water bottle, towel, and other stuff. Plus a few changes of clothes if you're away for the weekend.

Kit bag : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Black-Kit-bag ... 1e780aab01

Sword bag : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Heavy-Duty-Co ... 486442fceb

I've modified the sword bag slightly but it was good for purpose immediately. The pouch part in the centre is wide enough to fit most crossbars/quillions in. I can fit four or five swords and various other bits and pieces in quite happily.

[Phil C]

Hockey stick bag for blades/canes and a holdall for fencing togs and other odds n sods works best for me.

[Magnus Hagelberg]

Snowboard bag.

If possible, get the junior ones that are 146cm long.
Otherwise the 166cm long are nice. And will normaly hold all the gear you would like to have with you.
Some have the extra option for weels. This is handy if you travel in rural areas- since a bag containing swords and gear often gets in the 20kg region.

[Markehed]

3. How many swords would I need to take to classes? I imagine I need a waster, a Shinai and maybe a wooden dagger?
Griffin

Skip the shinai. I don't know of any club that use them. A wooden dagger might also be optional depending on the club.

I use this to carry all my equipment. You can fit all the gear you need in there.

[Chris H]

3. How many swords would I need to take to classes? I imagine I need a waster, a Shinai and maybe a wooden dagger?
Griffin

Skip the shinai. I don't know of any club that use them. A wooden dagger might also be optional depending on the club.

I use this to carry all my equipment. You can fit all the gear you need in there.

I had one of these for a while. They're good, but the clips often break and the plastic covering near the bottom falls off. That said the bag itself is sound and you can fit a huge amount of stuff in there.

[Griffin]

Hi all. Thanks for all of your advice.

After a long absence from the forum I finally bought a metal blade and am back with more questions...

1. Should I remove my sword from the bag when I am not using it to avoid moisture in the bag damaging the blade metal?

2. I see some instructions online advising to cover the blade in silicon or oil to prevent rusting but does this coating ruin any protective clothing stored inside the bag? I thought to use a leather scabbard to protect the rest of my gear but I also see advised online that leather can cause the blade to rust.

3. What is the law on the transportation and storage of swords? Should I padlock the zip on the bag and store my sword in a locked cabinet at home?

Many thanks in advance for any advice or guidance.

Griffin

[tea]

There's no need to keep it in a locked cabinet that I'm aware of, unless you're expecting to be burgled. Owning sharp swords is legal, and blunt fencing weapons are very legal. Mine are propped up in a corner near the back door, so they're convenient to grab when I head out to practice.

The transport question depends a lot on where in the country you are. Here in Cambridge, I commute to practice by bicycle, and just velcro my feder directly onto the pannier rack, or carry it in hand if I'm on foot. Hold by the cross guard, point up, and it looks fairly non-threatening. However, I'd never consider that while in London, because I don't like being arrested.

From a legal perspective, a fencing sword can be an offensive weapon, if you're carrying it to use as one. The defence against that is having a good reason (i.e., going to or from fencing practice), and being able to show you aren't planning to use it for violence.

But you don't want to even be getting into that issue. The better way is to carry it in a way that won't cause alarm, and to not get into fights or the like while transporting a sword. When your sword is in a snowboard bag with the rest of your fencing kit, nobody cares what's there, and you can just walk around with it. If you're not being otherwise dodgy or suspicious, you won't attract a second glance, much less any more problems with the police.

I'd probably padlock it shut if it was a sharp, just because that is unquestionably a weapon, and so having an extra bit of clarity that it's being transported for lawful use, not carried for unlawful violence, is potentially helpful. But again, carry it in an unobtrusive bag and don't be worried or nervous, and the chance of that being an issue is tiny.

I'd take it out of a bag while storing it, just because I probably want to take the other stuff out to sort and clean if necessary, but as long as it's not wet it should be fine.

Blades don't rust super-quickly. Check regularly, and if it starts to rust, give it a polish with some steel wool and oil. Finish by giving it a wipe down with an oiled rag. You'll end up with trace amounts of oil on the blade, which shouldn't soak into the rest of your kit much, but are another point in favour of keeping it in a bag with stuff you don't mind getting slightly oily.

(Note: I'm not a lawyer)

[Griffin]

Hey tea,

Thank you so much for taking the time to provide such an extensive answer.

It is greatly appreciated.

Regards

Griffin

[Arno P]

Since 2007 I've been using this nice looking bag "Bibikov" bag made out of canvas and leather:

http://web.archive.org/web/200707152104 ... t#moreinfo

Unfortunately no longer available but it's been very convenient and remarkably durable.

Lately I've been looking for something a bit roomier and with wheels, not for weekly training but for travelling to events. Golf travel covers (hard cases or soft bags) have the right length and seem useful.

Hard (rigid) cases pros & cons:

• Are easier to handle and store as they stand up by themselves and have the same shape regardless of content (i.e. don't sag if not filled up completely)
• Come with at least two wheels (for typical "drag behind you" mode of transport) and often with four wheels so that you can simply push the entire thing in front of you in its upright position, requiring less effort and taking up less space.
• Are capable of withstanding the stresses and strains of swords banging around inside
• Always take up the full space of their external dimensions as they're not collapsible
• Their weight (~5kg-7kg) means you don't get as much out of your check-in luggage allowance as for the
  soft golf travel cover bags.

Examples of cheap hard golf travel cases:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Forgan-Golf-Har ... 00JLG9ORO/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Longridge-BATCH ... 001UE6XQK/

High-end cases cost a lot more, e.g.
http://www.skbcases.com/sports/products.php?cat=16
http://www.rdco.co.uk/golf-travel-bags/

Soft bags pros & cons:

• Occasionally have wheels
• Are susceptible to being difficult to handle as they are not geared towards carrying swords etc. - many rely on having a full golf bag with clubs inside to lend them rigidity and will otherwise just sag, in which case you can forget about using the wheels.
• Are probably not very durable when loaded with fencing kit (especially the cheaper ones) because the material, stitching etc. is more likely to be inappropriate for the weight distribution and localised stresses and strains of swords.

Examples of soft golf travel bags:
http://www.golf-xpress.com/golf-bags/go ... -grey.html
http://www.golf-xpress.com/golf-bags/go ... -grey.html
http://www.golf-xpress.com/golf-bags/go ... black.html

More examples of cases & bags:
http://www.bigmaxgolf.com/en/products/travel-cover

[Herbert]

I've used quite a lot of bags and alternatives.
In our club, usually fishing bags are used. Some use sword bags.
I personally use a hardshell weapon case and I will not be going back to bags.

For the rest of the stuff I simply use a training bag.

So far this has been working best, wether I travel to an event by train, car or plane as well as for the regular training.

Herbert

[Griffin]

Anyone know where I can find the rules in Europe regarding carrying swords in public places because I was told the bag has to be secured shut with a padlock and '5 times shut' meaning it's not easy to access the sword in the bag and you have to unzip or open 5 closures to access the sword.

Would be good to know what the European legislation states.

[Glyn]

Anyone know where I can find the rules in Europe regarding carrying swords in public places because I was told the bag has to be secured shut with a padlock and '5 times shut' meaning it's not easy to access the sword in the bag and you have to unzip or open 5 closures to access the sword.

Would be good to know what the European legislation states.

I've heard similar stories as well, but having actively tried to locate any relevant UK legislation or case history I've drawn a blank. There are lots of laws restricting the carrying of weapons or bladed items in public, but I can't find any mention of a restriction on how the item must be conveyed if it is permitted. When I've heard this story the number of closures have been either two or three, the vagueness and gradual increase to an improbable five strongly hints at an urban myth at work.

In the UK it's not generally allowed to carry a sword without a good reason for doing so. It may help demonstrate that your reason is genuine if you carry your sword in a manner that makes it difficult to extract, but it's not essential. The fact that the sword is behind half a dozen zips and padlocks will also not be a sufficient justification on its own for having it in a public place unless there is a good reason as well. The reasonable excuse is primary, everything else is just to demonstrate that the reason is a true one.

My understanding is that the burden of proof is reversed - that is, once the prosecution have shown that you are carrying a weapon or bladed item, it is down to you to prove that your reason was good. Anything you can do to make your reasonable excuse as apparent and obvious as possible is a good idea, even if not strictly essential. The interpretation of what is good seems, at times, to have been quite harsh.

It is possible that at some point in the past a court has dismissed a dubious claim of reasonableness with one part of the doubt being the fact that the weapon was readily at hand. This does not, however, establish a general requirement that all weapons must be closed away behind multiple barriers and locks but would rather indicate a lack of strength in the original reason given for possession.

It should be noted that a Sikh kirpan (if carried by a Sikh) or a Scottish sgian dubh (when worn with national dress) are permitted and do not need to be behind five layers of closures. A blunt butter knife, on the other hand, has been found to be a bladed item and illegal to carry without excuse.

If the sword is in public view then other things may come into play. Apart from generally attracting unwanted attention, it's possible that people may feel threatened by it (and therefore you), and that might lead to action for causing a breach of the peace. That's an interesting piece of law, and probably beyond my ability to interpret reliably. They may also argue that you knew (or should have known) that your behaviour was threatening, which opens up a whole world of problems.

Private organisations, such as airlines, trains, couriers etc. may all have their own rules, though these seem to typically focus on firearms or generically dangerous items rather than swords specifically.

I would note that I would not expect this to be legislated at a European level. My own limited understanding of the law is restricted to the UK, other countries almost certainly have different laws. I am also most definitely not a lawyer and this advice is worth no more (and probably less) than what you paid me for it.

If you're interested in specific legislation, then the important ones appear to be these, though note that there's more than this (in particular to do with selling, making or importing weapons, specific types of knives, and possession in schools) and case history is also important as well:

Prevention of Crime Act 1953 Section 1
Criminal Justice Act 1988 Section 139
Criminal Justice Act 1988 Section 141
The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988
The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) (Amendment) Order 2008
The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) (Amendment No. 2) Order 2008

And one case history (out of, doubtless, many):

Brooker v DPP 2005

Oh, and one of my favourites, even though it isn't strictly relevant:

Tuberville v Savage

[Glyn]

And on the subject of sword bags, one that I've not encountered before - a waterproof dry bag long enough to take a sword or two:

http://www.ewetsuits.com/acatalog/gun-dry-bags-uk.html

It happily swallows a decent sized basket hilt, and just took a rapier with 25cm quillons - though the fabric was stretched uncomfortably taut so I doubt I'll be trying that again. The top rolls down so length is adjustable. Fabric seems reasonably durable, or at least value for money, but obviously won't last for ever if up against rough chunks of metal. If you don't have rubber blunts on your tips, or have particularly pointy pommels, you may want to exercise caution about how you load the bag.

A couple of basket hilt swords placed top to bottom will definitely go in, depending on length and hilt style you may get three or four in if you stack them carefully. Long cross guards need to go at the top as there's a circular gusset at the bottom but the other end is more amenable to being squashed out of shape.

The main downside is the lack of any straps or handles. You either need to plan on attaching your own straps somehow, or put it inside another bag. I have an old bag similar (but not identical to) this: https://www.ninecircles.co.uk/Bags/Wooden_Weapons_Bags/Club_Wooden_Weapons_Bag_-_Black_Nylon.aspx which is a good fit, so hopefully that one is too. Alternatively, it'll fit inside many larger bags and stop the sweat from your jacket etc. getting onto your swords.

For those who go from car to changing room this may not be worth the effort, but if you spend any time outdoors (especially those strange people who go camping and fighting) this may be worth considering.

[tea]

Anyone know where I can find the rules in Europe regarding carrying swords in public places because I was told the bag has to be secured shut with a padlock and '5 times shut' meaning it's not easy to access the sword in the bag and you have to unzip or open 5 closures to access the sword.

Would be good to know what the European legislation states.

I'm not aware of any general European legislation on this. Each country will have its own specific laws.

I would consult with local fencers for best practice, and a lawyer in the area if I wanted to transport sharp weapons.

As a rule of thumb, packed away behind a lock with a good reason for transport is probably good enough in most places. But the winning method, as always, is to not be doing things that get you searched for weapons.

[Griffin]

Thanks all for your replies and comments.

It seems to be a grey area but I will investigate further and report back with my findings.

Sincerely

Griffin