Coda Longa

[admin]

The back and forward-weighted variations are elsewhere in the Fiore material, besides the examples you quote - they are quite numerous taken as a whole. For example, from Pisani-Dossi below, which also shows these positions front-weighted elsewhere, but here appear back-weighted. This example below is not for power generation, but rather for nimbleness.
I would argue that the back-weighted stance is taken for the same reason as in later rapier/smallsword/backsword sources - to enable a quicker movement of the lead foot, a deeper lunge-step, and easier/quicker movement offline. The back-weighted stance is essentially defensive, but can also be inviting an attack and deceptive in hiding how close you actually are to the opponent (it means that your feet at the same distance away from them, but you look further away because your body is further away).

[Brian Stokes]

I have found Coda Longa very useful in entering stretto with the true edge although it is far more difficult to employ falso stretto from that guard. I also find it one of the easier guards from which to employ a false-edged fendente.

Brian

[Ian Mac Pharlaine]

False edged fendente? I mean those can be useful strikes when applied correctly, but does Fiore even mention anything like that in his treatises? From what I've seen, he tends to avoid Finestra-like positions at close range, probably due to it just asking for a blade grab and neck press, or a disarm.

[Michael Chidester]

He only specifies which edge to use in the mezani. The rest of the cuts are not edge-dependent.

[Brian Stokes]

Yes. The player in the first master is using a false edge cut (similar to a schielhau) as is the scholar in 29r1 - the third play of breaking thrust.

[admin]

I can see why someone might think that, but the only evidence is in some minute details of the illustrations in Getty only, right? You can't say that *is* what is being shown, only that this is what you think it looks like.

[Michael Chidester]

The scholar in the Novati is fingering the ricasso, so it's clearly true edge. The Paris image is ambiguous.

[Bulot]

The scholar in 29r1 is most likely throwing a rising false edge mezzani-like cut to the face, not a fendente colpo.

[admin]

It could be any of the above (though I think it is a simple fendente with the true edge to the temple of the head).. he just breaks the thrust, stands on the blade and says to hit the opponent in the head. It's doesn't really matter how the last part is done - the important part is the breaking the thrust and standing on the blade. How you then hit him in the head is someone irrelevant to the technique!

On the subject of false edge strikes... it is a very subjective matter. What defines the true and false edge?.. In 29R1 the back (left) hand makes that clearly a true-edge fendente or a false-edge sottano. However if we judge which edge is which by the lead (right) hand then it is more ambiguous. Personally I think calling this a false-edge sottano is clutching at straws. And in this particular technique totally irrelevant, as you can hit them in the head any way you like once you've broken their thrust and stood on their sword!

[Brian Stokes]

How Fun!

Hey Mike - As you know from our personal conversations I do not look at the Novati to define the Getty. Each are separate manuscripts. There are a number of plays in Novati that do not appear in the Getty and vice-versa. Ergo, the techniques may be different. I still say that Novati was probably written for a left-hander but only a look at the original PD manuscript MIGHT give a clue if there is any reference (extremely doubtful mind you) to whom it was created for.

Matt, the minute details are where the clues reside. Until recently I did not even consider that there was anything other than 'orthodox' view. To suggest otherwise is heresy. However, when sitting with the original for the third time I started to see a large number of corrections on many pages, down to a single hand being redrawn in the third play of 1st dagger. I had to step back and really question my pre-conceptions and over generalizations of each play. I and my crew have embarked on breaking down each play into its separate parts and found that if we precisely recreate what we see on the page, down to the minute details, it really changes our understanding of what is going on in the play. Our experience from recreating exactly what appears on the page and then backwards engineering the play has been to really open up our understanding of Fiore's art. Truth be told it would be more accurate to say that the more we work out the plays the more we realize the less we really know.

As to the false versus true edge in a cut. The player in the First Master, which we at the Schola call Vero Largo, and the scholar in 29r1 are alike in that their right thumb is not there and only the 1st digit of the fingers can be seen. The fingers are also squared to the cross. When I recreate this position as shown it is the false edge that is leading as the knuckles of my hand are pointing down and not to the right. Employing this cut in 29r1 creates a strike to the player's head using the false edge as the motion is continuous; after you strike a fendente simply wind the blade around. I have found this action to be approximately twice as fast as cutting true edge down and then cutting with the true edge to the head. According to one of my German practitioner friends it is similar to a play he calls the 'krumpau to the flat" save for the fact that it is a fendente cut and not a cross-cut/krumpau. (I know little to nothing of the German system so I may have used the incorrect term.)

Bulot - You may be correct. The right hand of the scholar is cupped so it would make sense the it could be a rising false-edged cut. It would work but I don't know if it is as fast as a winding cut. The scholar would have to at the very least change the position of his right hand from that used in the downward fendente (a knuckled grip) to the 'under-grip' (which we refer to as 'cupped") in order to have his right hand appear as seen in the play. I'll give it a try on during class on Saturday.

My take on 1st Master can be seen via this link should you have an interest.

http://www.scholasanmarco.com/vero-larg ... sword.html

Brian

[admin]

Thanks Brian, I'll have another look and have a play with it. Interesting

[OdinoSenzaOcchi]

I'm sorry to bring this thread up again I've began practicing longsword again and I remembered this thread about Coda Longa. I was thinking, isn't also a pommel strike a fast choice in this position?
It seems to mantain the deceptiveness of the posta, it's quite fast IMO, it can bring you to gioco stretto and if it misses, it can become a fendente or transform into Posta di Donna.
What do you guys think? Did the summer sun give me a foolish idea?

[Sean M]

I'm sorry to bring this thread up again I've began practicing longsword again and I remembered this thread about Coda Longa. I was thinking, isn't also a pommel strike a fast choice in this position?
It seems to mantain the deceptiveness of the posta, it's quite fast IMO, it can bring you to gioco stretto and if it misses, it can become a fendente or transform into Posta di Donna.
What do you guys think? Did the summer sun give me a foolish idea?

Odino, I would be worried about measure. The poste introduce themselves to us as positions which you adopt as you come into measure for a cut or a thrust (although you certainly stand in them in other situations). The measure for a pommel strike is short, and bringing your weapon into play from coda longa requires a long tempo. So how would you avoid getting cut or stabbed as you move through the intervening space? And if you are already close enough for a pommel strike, where is their weapon and how are you keeping it from killing you?