New Sparring Clips from Hammaborg

Open to public view.

Postby bigdummy » 10 Apr 2008 17:01

Roland Warzecha wrote:
bigdummy wrote:The winding, ringen etc. looks good but the entry into krieg seems almost based on a mutual agreement to bind and not to strike at initial openings.


BD


Well spotted.
We were recently focusing on working from the bind.
That is apparently reflected in the free play. Not surprising.

It has also been suggested to train more sophisticated wrestling. We will look into that.

All the best,
Roland


I think this actually very common with groups that spar with live steel or hardwood wasters, even to some extent groups that use shinai. Padded weapons seem to have the opposite problem, good striking at openings but relatively little winding.

The most realistic sparring I see seems to be with the Nylon wasters.

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Postby Claus Sørensen » 10 Apr 2008 22:17

Hello Roland!

As for grabbing the blade. Better idea with single swords than against a sword held with two hands I was told and that's correct of course. We will try to focus on some of the Armringen techniques next.
In any case, if your blade can be grabbed by your opponent it teaches you that it was standing still for too long.


I'll bet that you just prior to the trainingsession had a pizza and a nice italian wine and that was the reason you felt slightly italian in your style? :P
Fiori shows an illustration where he graps the blade with one hand! I've only seen the picture but do not know the whole context of the technique. But definitely a bladegrapping.

But at least one fencing Master shows such a grap, even if ihe is italian :wink:

But I've only got it on pdf and can't post it here "¤"¤(%¤"¤%/%#¤#¤# :x Probably just my lack of computerskills :roll:

Best wishes

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Postby Fab » 10 Apr 2008 22:19

Image

Getty.


Lots of one handed blade grabbing in Fiore. And it works (never tried with a live blade though, but from the several original swords I've seen, could still be possible).
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 10 Apr 2008 22:21

Thanks Fab!
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Postby Paul B » 17 Apr 2008 22:13

it turns up in the zweikampf and liegnitzer 1/2 sword sections of von danzig.
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Claus Sørensen » 17 Apr 2008 22:25

Hello Poul!

it turns up in the zweikampf and liegnitzer 1/2 sword sections of von danzig.


But they are meant for armoured fencing or at least an armoured hand as is mentioned in VD.

Hÿe hebt sich an Maister Andres Kunst genant der lignitzer Dem got genadig seÿ Das kurtz swert Zw gewappenter hant zů geleicher ritterlicher were

Sorry if you were replying to my last post Poul. where I showed the Meyer picture. I removed it since the combatant is grapping the ricasso of the blade and not the blade it self. My mistake.

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Postby Paul B » 17 Apr 2008 22:36

Claus Sørensen wrote:Hello Poul!

it turns up in the zweikampf and liegnitzer 1/2 sword sections of von danzig.


But they are meant for armoured fencing or at least an armoured hand as is mentioned in VD.

Hÿe hebt sich an Maister Andres Kunst genant der lignitzer Dem got genadig seÿ Das kurtz swert Zw gewappenter hant zů geleicher ritterlicher were

Sorry if you were replying to my last post Poul. where I showed the Meyer picture. I removed it since the combatant is grapping the ricasso of the blade and not the blade it self. My mistake.

Claus


true, the hand is armoured, but not the palm, which after all is doing the gripping
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Claus Sørensen » 18 Apr 2008 09:02

Hello Poul.

Let me just say that I fully believe that it is possible to do so, both armourend and unarmoured. Fiori is enough proff for me concerning unarmoured fencing even if we don't see it in german manuals.

And that it is main point here! We don't see it in german fencing concerning blossfechten. Here you always grap the opponents hand or the grip of the sword. Or even the ricasso as in Meyer. But not the blade.

halfswording is another matter......... And should normally not be mixed with regular blossfechten since it is meant for armoured fencing, where the sword moves different and the combat-situations also are quite different. Even the swords characteristics are sometimes different from normal swords.

But who cares! Fiori proves that "some" people grapped the blade in normal unarmoured fencing! :)

Best wishes

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Postby Axel » 18 Apr 2008 09:38

Both Meyer, CW and Ringeck (and perhaps others) show grabbing your opponents blade with bare hands in a sword taking technique, here is the Meyer example (figures to the tight):

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Postby Anders Linnard » 18 Apr 2008 10:03

Ringeck also does it in other unarmoured techniques, for example as a way of getting stronger than your opponent in the bind, pressing your point into his face.

/A
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 18 Apr 2008 14:36

Ahhh but Anders, that is his own sword he is gripping there(In Ringeck).

Such techniques where you change into ½sword-tecniques is an altogether different thing. They are seen plenty of places. Talhoffer also shows a few of them. Here the text e.g. says: Usz dem fryen how gevallen in das gewauppet ort.

What we are discussing(I think :wink: ) is where someone graps the opponents blade like shown in the getty-manual, I.33 and like Roland did it in the video.

And if you can find such in a german manual I would very much like to see it, and also be very glad to see it. :) Because I only remember seing them done in the armoured sections of the manuals(gripping the blade) or if one grips the grip, hand or crossguard.

Axel. I've seen the picture in meyer but I don't think that we can use it to verify swordgrapping in german blossfechten since they are obviously using federn(non-sharp). There is also a nice picture on plate M where he graps the opponents ricasso but that shouldn't count as well because of the same reasons.

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Postby Neil Cardy » 18 Apr 2008 15:11

Claus Sørensen wrote:Ahhh but Anders, that is his own sword he is gripping there(In Ringeck).



Claus, it appears in the picture that he is grasping both blades together, there is something similar in Fiore I believe.
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Postby Anders Linnard » 18 Apr 2008 15:13

Ringeck has it described in Ringen am schwert section of the blossfechten, here:

Ain schwert nemen
Item wenn er mitt versetzen oder
sunst an din schwert bindet so
begrÿff mitt lincker
verkörter hand baÿde schwert
mitten in den clingen vnd halt
sÿ veste zu samen
/ vnd far mitt
der rechten hand gegen diner
lincken sÿtten mitt dem knopff
vnden durch im über sein baÿde
hende vnd ruck domitt übersich
vff din rechte sÿtten So belÿben
dir baÿde schwert

And sorry for not reading your post properly so I missed what we are talking about. But the above quote is clearly blossfechten and he is clearly grabbing the opponents (and his own blade) much in the fashion of that shown in Axel's Meyer image.
/A
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 18 Apr 2008 17:04

Thanks Anders!

Forgot about that one! :) Talhoffer show almost similar techniques but as part of his armoured/specialized swordtechniques.

I'll have to show you my master thesis on Hans Talhoffer some day if you are interested! It partly deals with these grappings!

But it still doesn't show swordgrapping like in the getty-manual(and like the ones we/I am :wink: ) discussing. But definitely a good example.

Neil! The first technique Anders mentioned is another technique from Ringeck but this last one he mentions is similar to the picture in Meyer!

Best wishes

Claus
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 18 Apr 2008 21:29

Hello Poul!

true, the hand is armoured, but not the palm, which after all is doing the gripping


Of course you are right here! :) If you get that far. My experience with halfswording techniques is that once you get hold of your opponents blade you are relatively safe to do your intended technique(no rules without exceptions :wink: ) but do it with intension and do not stop your movement.

The main problem is grapping your opponents blade without getting your hand cut(not the palm, but the hand) And this is quite easy to do(cut the opponents hand) if you are both using halfsword-techniques and is both without armoured gloves!

But at the right moment (and situation) it is of course possible to do such! :) But it is not just something that one does out of the blue! :)

Interesting discussion! Nice to have such with you guys!

Btw- Poul - Nice music on the fightcamp 2007 video! :)

Best wishes

Claus
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Postby Neil Cardy » 18 Apr 2008 21:48

Claus Sørensen wrote:
Neil! The first technique Anders mentioned is another technique from Ringeck but this last one he mentions is similar to the picture in Meyer!

Best wishes

Claus


Ahh! I missed the change in treatises.
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Postby Stevie T » 18 Apr 2008 23:10

Plate 40 in talhoffers 1476

Plate 46

Plate 48

Plate49

Plate 50

Plate 62

Plate 68, the guy on the right, no blade holding but he looks just like me.


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Postby Claus Sørensen » 19 Apr 2008 08:00

Dear Stevie!

Now we are talking about something close to my hearth! Talhoffers plates! :) And especially the ½sword techniques.

Those pictures are not regular blossfechten-pictures! They are a mix between his armoured ½sword fighting illustrations from his other 5 manuals and the use of specialized swords for the duel.

And these situations are not caused from "fryen how" but from fighthing from the ½sword-stances and there is quite a difference there. (There are two illustrations earlier in the "1467" where he uses the same aproach as Anders mentioned in his first post, but not in this part of the manual)

It really becomes quite clear if you use all his five manuals to interpretate/validate these pictures, and more important that you use the text that goes with these pictures. The text is different from manual to manual and that really helps to understand the illustrations which are similar. But it is also a great help to understanding the context of the pictures

So these pictures are unfortunaly not proff of swordgrapping in "blossfechten". They are part of a specialized duel fought with ½sword-techniques and not as regular blossfechten!

But the issue (as its always been :wink: ) is not whether swordgrapping happens in german ½sword fencing but if people can find similar situations to Fiori's getty-manual and like Roland did it in his video.

Best wishes

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Postby Anders Linnard » 20 Apr 2008 09:12

Claus Sørensen wrote:Thanks Anders!

I'll have to show you my master thesis on Hans Talhoffer some day if you are interested! It partly deals with these grappings!



I am really looking forward to it.

/Anders
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Postby Fab » 20 Apr 2008 11:17

So am I.
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