Meyer's influences?

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Meyer's influences?

Postby admin » 24 Oct 2007 11:27

Do we know for sure what Meyer's influences were? Did he actually study with Italians, for sure?
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Postby Harry » 24 Oct 2007 16:07

well, I would say it is very plausible.

I would say that he way quite influenced by marozzo and possibly capoferro.

at the moment I can't prove it, but I am quite sure that it is so... maybe we can make a working group for find this out.
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Postby MugginsToadwort » 26 Oct 2007 08:13

I'll have to say this: Meyer's rappier may show ideas from elsewhere, but it is still idiosyncratic. I don't see much of Capoferro in the work- I've been dealing with Capoferro for two years now, and the system of covers and backweighted stepping, as well as regular grabs for for the hand, is very different to Meyer's work. Meyer advocates forward-weighted stances, and uses cuts to defend in the main. Meyer also really likes to feint, and often changes thrusts to cuts and vice versa. Capoferro dislikes feints, and his weapon precludes cuts.

What we really need to look at is Meyer's German predecessors. Paulus Hector Mair shows "Spanish Sword", and his manuscript is from 1540. Meyer wrote in 1570, Di Grassi 1570, Marozzo about 1536, Saint Didier about 1570. Capoferro is far too late, 1610, and is heavily influenced by Agrippa, whose book dates from 1556. Assuming Meyer was relatively old when he wrote his book, with formal training 20 to 30 years before, his influences are likely to be the Bolognese School and Mair- new ideas percolate very slowly at that point.

Of course, the structure of Meyer's book could reflect a number of new didactic and pedagogic ideas, from Germany, Italy and elsewhere....
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Postby admin » 26 Oct 2007 10:18

Completely superficially, to me, Meyer's 'rappier' looks not unlike Bolognese swordplay.
It's not 'rapier' as we define it today, IMHO.
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Postby Alex H. » 28 Oct 2007 07:55

I've just prepared a class titled "The Longsword in one hand with one foot" because it strikes me that this is very much the way Meyer used the rapier. The more I study it the more I see longsword and the less anything else.

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Postby Harry » 28 Oct 2007 22:34

MugginsToadwort wrote:I'll have to say this: Meyer's rappier may show ideas from elsewhere, but it is still idiosyncratic. I don't see much of Capoferro in the work- I've been dealing with Capoferro for two years now, and the system of covers and backweighted stepping, as well as regular grabs for for the hand, is very different to Meyer's work. Meyer advocates forward-weighted stances, and uses cuts to defend in the main. Meyer also really likes to feint, and often changes thrusts to cuts and vice versa. Capoferro dislikes feints, and his weapon precludes cuts.


I would see it in the way of his stand....

normally in german school you stand quite upright... meyer started to stand there with bend widly forward with his torso and put his arse far backwards... looks like capoferro for me.
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Postby Bill Grandy » 28 Oct 2007 23:08

Harry wrote:I would see it in the way of his stand....

normally in german school you stand quite upright... meyer started to stand there with bend widly forward with his torso and put his arse far backwards... looks like capoferro for me.


Actually, Meyer's stance is the exact opposite of how all the 17th century Italian masters (such as Capo Ferro) prescribed. They all stand with roughly 3/4 of the weight on the rear leg. Capo Ferro in particular seems to favor the "rear" stance, where the torso is held back, but even the "forward" stance of Italian rapier, where the upper torso is forward (such as commonly seen in Fabris) keeps the weight on the rear leg.
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Postby Bill Grandy » 28 Oct 2007 23:12

Alex H. wrote:I've just prepared a class titled "The Longsword in one hand with one foot" because it strikes me that this is very much the way Meyer used the rapier. The more I study it the more I see longsword and the less anything else.

Alex.


I thnk I agree with the core intent of your statement, but not necessarily the statement itself. What I mean by this: I see Meyer's rapier as the Liechtenauer principles applied to a "new" weapon. These are the same principles seen in the other Liechtenauer weapons, in which the longsword is often the pedagogical tool to train these principles.

So in other words, I don't see the Meyer's rapier as being longsword applied to rapier, I see it as Liechtenauers art being applied to rapier, hence the heavy similarities between the usage of both swords.
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Postby Alex H. » 29 Oct 2007 06:34

Bill Grandy wrote:
Alex H. wrote:I've just prepared a class titled "The Longsword in one hand with one foot" because it strikes me that this is very much the way Meyer used the rapier. The more I study it the more I see longsword and the less anything else.

Alex.


I thnk I agree with the core intent of your statement, but not necessarily the statement itself. What I mean by this: I see Meyer's rapier as the Liechtenauer principles applied to a "new" weapon. These are the same principles seen in the other Liechtenauer weapons, in which the longsword is often the pedagogical tool to train these principles.

So in other words, I don't see the Meyer's rapier as being longsword applied to rapier, I see it as Liechtenauers art being applied to rapier, hence the heavy similarities between the usage of both swords.


Yeah... what he said.

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Postby Barca » 01 Jan 2008 09:46

MugginsToadwort wrote:Assuming Meyer was relatively old when he wrote his book, with formal training 20 to 30 years before


Hi James,

According to the abstract for this article by Olivier Dupuis: http://www.hemac-dijon.com/2007/odeng.htm Meyer was in his 30s (still quite young by 16th century standards) when he died.

Assuming Meyer was born in 1537 as suggested by the article, and his book was published in 1570, he certainly had considerably less than 30 years formal training, perhaps closer to 15 years more or less if he began training around his mid-teens. Of course, this is speculation, and as I can't read French I'm wondering if further detail is provided in the cited article.

For those who have read the article, does it shed light on the origin and length of Meyer's training? I'd like to get a copy of this article in English... ;)

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Postby Fab » 01 Jan 2008 14:05

Barca wrote:For those who have read the article, does it shed light on the origin and length of Meyer's training? I'd like to get a copy of this article in English... ;)

Cheers,


No. It gives however other details on Meyer's life.

A most excellent article, I'd say :wink: . No translation exists, but it's easily understandable French.
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Postby David Welch » 02 Jan 2008 08:07

admin wrote:Completely superficially, to me, Meyer's 'rappier' looks not unlike Bolognese swordplay.
It's not 'rapier' as we define it today, IMHO.


It's much more along the lines of military cut and thrust, IMO.
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Postby Barca » 02 Jan 2008 23:35

Fab wrote:No translation exists, but it's easily understandable French.


Hmm, I'm only hampered then by the fact I can't understand French. ;) My girl can however... :idea: What's the easiest way to get a copy of this journal here in Australia?

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Postby Fab » 03 Jan 2008 03:15

Barca wrote:What's the easiest way to get a copy of this journal here in Australia?

Cheers,


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Postby admin » 03 Jan 2008 16:52

David Welch wrote:
admin wrote:Completely superficially, to me, Meyer's 'rappier' looks not unlike Bolognese swordplay.
It's not 'rapier' as we define it today, IMHO.


It's much more along the lines of military cut and thrust, IMO.


Bolognese swordplay is military cut and thrust. :)
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Postby David Welch » 04 Jan 2008 07:28

admin wrote:
Bolognese swordplay is military cut and thrust. :)


Well there you go then. I was right.

:lol:

I meant as opposed to rapier. But I freely admit that I know shit about Bolognese swordplay. I do like Meyer C&T though, so I guess I need to look at it. What is a good source?
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Postby admin » 04 Jan 2008 12:18

Marozzo. You can find translations and pictures online.
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Italian influence?

Postby Alex H. » 29 Jan 2008 10:53

I'm slowly but surely piecing together a comparison of Meyer with the Bolognese Masters here.

Is there Italian influence in there? Probably, Meyer claims there is and I'm guessing he'd know, and probably some Spanish too but I don't think there is a rock solid case for any particular master having influenced Meyer other than Viggiani and the influence clearly wasn't that great given that Meyer does something fundamentally different.

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