'Ligans ligati': Interpreting I.33's Central Rhyme

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Re: 'Ligans ligati': Interpreting I.33's Central Rhyme

Postby Herbert » 25 Aug 2015 06:29

Cosmoline wrote:Thinking this through, if I'm overbound I can expect a shield strike followed by the sword typically, correct?

Agreed.

Cosmoline wrote:If I withdraw my blade and revert to prima, stepping back, would that put me outside the range of a successful shield strike? In a way he'd just be pushing my buckler, with my sword now moving independently back. So he doesn't secure my blade, which can pass through prima as it then comes back around to intercept his blade?

I see what your thoughts are. In my consideration this doesn't work because of two things:
1) you will be too slow because even if the buckler strike doesn't connect or connect well, the opponent should still strike to the head and he will get you with this strike
2) There is no way you can intercept this strike from the 1st guard, no matter how you make it. This might be due to the way I do the shield strike and cut but I am quite sure you won't be able to intercept it.

And don't forget that in case you retreat too far he can always stab from the cut.

In my opinion this doesn't work and I don't know why it is depicted here as such. But it is the only instance where it is shown as going into the 1st ward. Bit of a tough one this.

Cosmoline wrote:Loved your longsword treatment and I'm eagerly awaiting the next one on pre-order! In fact I loaned out the longsword text to a fellow student and I fear I may have to get another one.

Thank you very much! I am glad that you liked it and even found it useful.

best wishes

Herbert
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Re: 'Ligans ligati': Interpreting I.33's Central Rhyme

Postby Cosmoline » 25 Aug 2015 18:29

I love puzzles like this. I should explain that the way we do prima is based on some stuff Chris developed at the bouts with Roland & co.. We are now left foot forward, with the sword stacked "sub" the arm, not tucked inside it. The theory is that the weapon only appears to be literally tucked under the arm because of the way the robes were cut, with a large mutton-chop of fabric that dangled down. So from this position, if one makes a tight rotation and drives the pommel around and down, it will swing the sword past the left arm and buckler, clearing the space in front. The buckler reaches when the sword passes, acting as a bolster and assist. If there's a high strike or thrust, the rotation will intercept high and the buckler drives forward up to do the oberstich. If there's a lower attack, or you intercept quickly, you flow into a buckler-assisted overbind. We've been tweaking it for a while now and it really makes prima into an incredibly effective all-purpose ward. And you can of course still do the usual underbinds, thrusts, crutches, etc. from our version of prima.

But I agree even with this in mind, the timing would seem to be off to "flee" into prima in response to a shield strike. I'll play around with it next class and see what happens. The idea of ever pulling *back* to cede space without cover is really troublesome esp. if he's advancing forward to cut. The only analogy I can think of off hand would be a mutatio where you might shift the hip back to get the blade rotated around and over your buckler hand, but even then the buckler stays out there providing cover for that beat.

Maybe the point of the illustration is to show what not to do.
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Re: 'Ligans ligati': Interpreting I.33's Central Rhyme

Postby Herbert » 25 Aug 2015 19:38

Cosmoline wrote:I love puzzles like this.

Me too…part of the allure of HEMA.

Cosmoline wrote:I should explain that the way we do prima […]

I can envision it, I have seen it done by Roland. It has advantages and disadvantages.

Cosmoline wrote:But I agree even with this in mind, the timing would seem to be off to "flee" into prima in response to a shield strike. I'll play around with it next class and see what happens. The idea of ever pulling *back* to cede space without cover is really troublesome esp. if he's advancing forward to cut. The only analogy I can think of off hand would be a mutatio where you might shift the hip back to get the blade rotated around and over your buckler hand, but even then the buckler stays out there providing cover for that beat.

The problem is, that after the initial bind (falling under sword and shield), the one in half shield is always on the inside with his blade. This means that he has always the straight line to your head, he is faster and additionally he is the one having the initiative. I can't buy the idea of going into first guard in this situation.

Cosmoline wrote:Maybe the point of the illustration is to show what not to do.

Maybe…but then it would've been noted in the text as in other instances.

The only thin I know with certainty is that we don't really know what Lutegerus wanted to tell us exactly. But it's not as if this was the only instance where something was left unclear. Nooooo!
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Re: 'Ligans ligati': Interpreting I.33's Central Rhyme

Postby Cosmoline » 26 Aug 2015 19:21

Out of curiosity, where do you think that central poem came from? I wonder if it had been in use for some time before, maybe well into the previous century. And just got borrowed and adapted as Liechtenauer's verse did later on. Only I.33 is in this case the only example we have of it. Maybe there were similar verses in the oral tradition going way back. Or maybe it was just what this particular priest used to teach students--for whatever reason he was teaching them. It's painful to imagine what educational poems like that might have been tossed into a fire over the centuries. Can you imagine one from a viking warrior, rhyming about how to use the sword and shield?
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Re: 'Ligans ligati': Interpreting I.33's Central Rhyme

Postby Herbert » 26 Aug 2015 20:15

It seems a bit out of place in the manuscript as it is the only piece of text repeated again and again verbatim.

The thought that it might be an older verse that gut (re)used here is an interesting one. It certainly seems possible.

Anyway it seems that it was something that Lutegerus thought was important for one reason or another.

Personally I was wondering what might be so central to this verse that it pops up so often. Why repeat it, almost hammer it in? What is so important?
Either it is a central technique, a key element of his style or it is the tactical basis of his style…or both.

The tactical consideration would be to put pressure on your opponent and keep it up, even when he tries to flee.
The technical side is the tricky one…and why we are having this most interesting discussion.

Sadly, I can't say with certainty.
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Re: 'Ligans ligati': Interpreting I.33's Central Rhyme

Postby Cosmoline » 27 Aug 2015 09:51

I tried out my crazy idea with Chris tonight. It works, but not terribly well. And I end up in a position that isn't really Prima. So it's not exactly true to the text. There are better responses to someone trying the shield strike that don't result in a collapsed center. So maybe it's just intended as a general example of traveling-after.
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