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Re: Unarmed vs Dagger is Bullshido

PostPosted: 05 Dec 2014 19:00
by Mink
SteelCat wrote:And is a knife/dagger fight inheritently more dangerous than for example a sword fight (assuming both are similarly armed)?

Manciolino alludes to this in his introduction. He says that the shorter the weapon, the more dangerous the fight is, because you are closer. Also he says that training with shorter swords forces to be better at parrying, which I think can be genearlized to daggers.

Regards,

Re: Unarmed vs Dagger is Bullshido

PostPosted: 09 Dec 2014 14:29
by Martin Greywolf
Talhoffer seems to suggest something similar, prefacing the messer and dagger sections with:

Dagger: "Here they fight with daggers, God help us all."
Messer: "here they fight with messers, may God not forget us."

Other sections don't have anything like this, including, interestingly, grappling. This, at least to me, suggests that Talhoffer considered dagger fights a very bad thing to be in, messer fights to be slightly better, and other weapon combinations (including messer and buckler vs sword and buckler, mounted lance vs mounted crossbow, and rock in a bedsheet vs a club while buried up to the waist) to be relatively OK.

Re: Unarmed vs Dagger is Bullshido

PostPosted: 09 Dec 2014 16:55
by fullplate
Not to mention what Silver had to say about the whole thing :lol:

Re: Unarmed vs Dagger is Bullshido

PostPosted: 10 Dec 2014 18:17
by MEversbergII
Martin Greywolf wrote:Dagger: "Here they fight with daggers, God help us all."
Messer: "here they fight with messers, may God not forget us."


Well, that explains that.


[quote=fullplate]
Not to mention what Silver had to say about the whole thing
[/quote]

That's actually where I started to reflect on my experiences. In all truth maybe we just weren't training well enough. If memory serves just as often as not the knives were basically not part of the game until well after the grappling began.

Silver's true times come into play - once someone's "in range" it's hard to foot yourself away from their hand!

Speaking of small percent increases in survival - one of the common phrases to deride questionable combat techniques at Bullshido.net is "low percentage". That says something.

M.

Re: Unarmed vs Dagger is Bullshido

PostPosted: 11 Dec 2014 20:00
by Mink
MEversbergII wrote:Speaking of small percent increases in survival - one of the common phrases to deride questionable combat techniques at Bullshido.net is "low percentage". That says something.

If the technique has a low chance of success but is your best bet in the given situation, being low percentage is not necessarily a bad thing. When the low percentage technique can be replaced by another with a much higher chance of success, then yes that is the problem.

I don't think dagger techniques from the sources can easily be put in the second category (though I'm sure it varies from text to text).

Regards,

Re: Unarmed vs Dagger is Bullshido

PostPosted: 28 Feb 2015 01:07
by MEversbergII
Speaking of Bullshido and dagger/knife defense, I found this on the Bullshido page today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j55d8uqvKDQ

Worth noting the victim in the "reality" doesn't really defend himself much, just like the attacker in the "fantasy", though.

M.

Re: Unarmed vs Dagger is Bullshido

PostPosted: 28 Feb 2015 10:59
by Jonathan Waller
1 I always look and try to consider, what are they trying to sell me!
2 at that distance, and with a reactive gap of 200ms if one is "defending" reactively there is not much one can do. so anything would need to be active...

which takes me back to point 1, what is this video trying to sell me.. :?

Re: Unarmed vs Dagger is Bullshido

PostPosted: 28 Feb 2015 23:05
by Mink
Jonathan Waller wrote:which takes me back to point 1, what is this video trying to sell me.. :?

I suppose they are among the people who advise to run? I genuinely don't know.

Regards,

Re: Unarmed vs Dagger is Bullshido

PostPosted: 01 Mar 2015 10:48
by Jonathan Waller
The video is a repost of another video, it is selling a school/system as I recall in the original... Along the line of RBSD as opposed to Traditional MA

Re: Unarmed vs Dagger is Bullshido

PostPosted: 06 Mar 2015 19:41
by Dave B
Mink wrote:
Jonathan Waller wrote:which takes me back to point 1, what is this video trying to sell me.. :?

I suppose they are among the people who advise to run? I genuinely don't know.

Regards,


I don't think that there is any good advice apart from 'don't be there'. I honestly think that if an attacker with a knife genuinely wants to stab you, and he is only a step away when you realise, then your only realistic hope of survival is an ambulance close by and really good trauma team.

Re: Unarmed vs Dagger is Bullshido

PostPosted: 06 Mar 2015 21:09
by Mink
Dave B wrote:I don't think that there is any good advice apart from 'don't be there'. I honestly think that if an attacker with a knife genuinely wants to stab you, and he is only a step away when you realise, then your only realistic hope of survival is an ambulance close by and really good trauma team.

Still, if you are here, there has to be a best way to act, or something to train towards. That is the point of martial arts in my opinion, not necessarily to win, but at least to do something. Because 'don't be there' is my personal attitude to any fight, actually :)

Regards,

Re: Unarmed vs Dagger is Bullshido

PostPosted: 06 Mar 2015 23:59
by Dave B
But given that you can only spend so much time training, isn't there an argument that Rory Miller style situational awareness stuff is more likely to save you than learning disarms?

Re: Unarmed vs Dagger is Bullshido

PostPosted: 07 Mar 2015 09:55
by Jonathan Waller
That sort of awareness though can be practiced day in day out, whereever you and and whatever you find yourself doing. In effect they are life choices.
Whether or not the mechanics in the the MS are applicable now, is largely irrelevant in that context, sure what we doing when we study them is reconstruction and preservation of old knowledge.

Keeping in mind what the actuality of something might be must inform that approach, but we must be careful we are not replacing one fantasy with another...