Unified Weapons Master?

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Unified Weapons Master?

Postby Tyler Brandon » 19 Jul 2014 00:22

I ran across this article the other day surfing the inter-webs and this quote caught my eye...

“We’ve got the historical European martial artists chomping at the bit to take on the various Asian styles, and we can’t wait to see who comes out on top there."

Has anyone else seen this? Not really sure how I feel about this but my initial reaction was kinda' :? :roll:

Any opinions?

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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 19 Jul 2014 11:53

IMO visually UWM's armour is very appealing, however it could be a nightmare to install sensors in every segment of it, and make them work reliably under constant heavy impact from various weapons. Anyway the whole stuff is really cool. Let's hope they can succeed!

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At the moment it also isn't completely clear: Are there HEMA people involved in this project? Well-known HEMA swordsmen?
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Re: Unified Weapons Master?

Postby swordflasher » 19 Jul 2014 14:01

It doesn't mention what the weapons will be made of.

If they are steel sharps or heavy impact weapons, it will be a remarkable suit and faceplate that can resist a sharp point or blunt trauma with a mans weight behind, it every area and every joint

If they are not steel sharps, why would you need a suit? Surely some minimal protection and either judges or cameras would do as well?

I'm guessing the main problems with an adequate suit would be heat, mobility and air, along with the effectiveness of sensors.

But yes, why not, a cool idea to explore..
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 19 Jul 2014 17:25

Why would they need sharp weapons?

I guess they try to simulate "naked" combat and this armour functions in the very same way as HEMA modern protective equipment. It seems that the big advantage could be the ability to locate with some precision the hits and measure the impact force of a successful hit, and then calculate - presumably based on some medical data etc - the potential damage caused by this hit, show it as a score, or even to visualize the calculated damage to the spectators (a gaping wound with splashing blood?! in one article CGI was mentioned).

Based on the available demos mobility isn't a big issue, however the transparent visor of the helmet could be fogged up in minutes (?!).
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Re: Unified Weapons Master?

Postby swordflasher » 19 Jul 2014 22:58

Good points - if the purpose of the suit is just to record the pressure of hits on different target areas rather than protection, it will be interesting to see what values they ascribe to different targets, and how a drawing cut compares to a tap and so on.

I'm still curious to know what weapons will be used - if not real weapons, then steel blunts or polypropylene or what, and if not steel how good they will be as simulators if there is to be any value to this.

But yes, sounds fun.
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 20 Jul 2014 07:07

I suspect that steel blunts could be used.

And yes, it will be very entertaining to see how they are going to evaluate / calculate the damage etc.
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Re: Unified Weapons Master?

Postby Ken McKenzie » 20 Jul 2014 17:37

From what I understand I think that the CEO(?) of the company behind UWM has a background in Krabi-Krabong and that he was unaware of the existence of HEMA until fairly recently, so I doubt that HEMA has had too much influence on the development of UWM so far.

I can see some things that I think could be problems, both with the armour and the concept, but on the whole I find the idea of having practitioners of different styles of weapon combat competing in a tournament environment to be an intriguing one. And, given that it is something local (to me), that increases my interest given the shortage of HEMA events in my hemisphere.
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 20 Jul 2014 17:59

So you could facilitate the cooperation between UWM and local HEMA practitioners / experts?
It might be a good idea to contact the firm and outline some possible ways of the joint work in testing, participation at competitions organized by UWM, etc.
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Re: Unified Weapons Master?

Postby RobinH » 20 Jul 2014 23:34

Certainly seems interesting. I do wonder about their claim to medical accuracy - it has a bit of a 'Deadliest Warrior' feel to me; how do they register the difference between a cut or a thrust with a blade, or between blunt trauma lacerations?

As for what weapons they're using, what they've got on their pictures as far as I can see is Cold Steel polypropylene simulators. I'd guess they'd be reluctant to use steel, but maybe there's hope.
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Re: Unified Weapons Master?

Postby Bob D » 21 Jul 2014 10:50

A lot of this information is second or third hand as I haven't had any direct contact with the UWM team. Those with more direct contact might be able to fill in more details.

Members of the Australian HEMA community have reached out to to UWM and invited them to events like Swordplay14. The overall feeling I get is we're supportive and want to get HEMA in the UWM mix. It will be interesting to see how it develops. I get the sense there is certainly no shortage of Australian HEMAists keen to give it a go.

From what I understand steel weapons are incompatible with the system.
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Re: Unified Weapons Master?

Postby Tyler Brandon » 21 Jul 2014 22:32

One photo appears to have a polypropylene gladius, I got the idea it would be synthetics and rattan weapons.

I kinda thought "Deadliest Warrior" too when the UWM folks said they wanted to measure strike force and base scoring like a health meter in a fighting game. How they assign values should be interesting.
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 22 Jul 2014 06:13

Bob wrote:From what I understand steel weapons are incompatible with the system.

Why?
Could steel blunts damage the armour? Sensors? Visor?
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 22 Jul 2014 06:22

Tyler wrote:How they assign values should be interesting.

If UWM has enough money, time and dedication, then it is possible - at least theoretically - to perform cutting test on carcasses, together with high-tech gadgets (high-speed cameras, accelerometers etc) one could measure the impact. Even without really thorough testing certain preliminary values could be assigned to given actions, performed with a specific training weapon. Later those values could be fine-tuned.
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Re: Unified Weapons Master?

Postby RobinH » 24 Jul 2014 02:15

Tyler Brandon wrote:One photo appears to have a polypropylene gladius, I got the idea it would be synthetics and rattan weapons.


The cover photo on their facebook page is like someone raided the Cold Steel warehouse for all the polys they could take.

Ulrich von L...n wrote:
Tyler wrote:How they assign values should be interesting.

If UWM has enough money, time and dedication, then it is possible - at least theoretically - to perform cutting test on carcasses, together with high-tech gadgets (high-speed cameras, accelerometers etc) one could measure the impact. Even without really thorough testing certain preliminary values could be assigned to given actions, performed with a specific training weapon. Later those values could be fine-tuned.


IIRC, the article said something about "latest medical research", whatever that means.
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Re: Unified Weapons Master?

Postby Tyler Brandon » 24 Jul 2014 21:12

RobinH wrote:IIRC, the article said something about "latest medical research", whatever that means.


The doc from Deadliest Warrior?
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Re: Unified Weapons Master?

Postby Lemmingofdoom » 25 Aug 2014 11:36

Hi! First post.

So they've just released a bunch of "UWA Unleashed" videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngATRlR3UuU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CrlHRjAP1Q

My concern with these is that they are clearly choreographed demos. This doesn't seem to bode well for the ability of the armour to take serious hits.

Its also looking more and more like WEKAF (the armoured FMA sparring), which makes me sad.
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Re: Unified Weapons Master?

Postby swordflasher » 27 Aug 2014 17:48

Hmm, people in plastic armour hitting each other repeatedly and pointlessly with plastic sticks between 'proper' martial art punches and kicks. :( I'm sure they are skilled martial artists, but what were the plastic batons supposed to represent, apart from just being slightly annoying plastic batons?

I also am reminded of armoured Fma. I went to see a contest about 5 years ago, and watched lots of obviously very skilled Fma fighters practising beforehand, then put on helmets and quilted boiler lagging, and pogo up and down hitting each other on the heads 40 or 50 times in a minute. Sometimes they waggled the stick sideways, but mainly just bashed it up and down.

How about losing the armour and having an olympic fencing type suit? Maybe different types of lame with different conductivity, to show which part of the target is hit, if that's important, and a simple 'three hits and your dead' rule, and blunt steel training weapons. It would be good to see more and more cross training between martial arts..
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Re: Unified Weapons Master?

Postby Lemmingofdoom » 28 Aug 2014 22:27

swordflasher wrote:I also am reminded of armoured Fma. I went to see a contest about 5 years ago, and watched lots of obviously very skilled Fma fighters practising beforehand, then put on helmets and quilted boiler lagging, and pogo up and down hitting each other on the heads 40 or 50 times in a minute. Sometimes they waggled the stick sideways, but mainly just bashed it up and down.


A lot of that behaviour is encouraged by the rules. Here, for example, are the rules for the armoured competition to be held at SENI this year:
Code: Select all
RULES & REGULATIONS
SCORING:-
10-9 Must system. Target everything above the knees.
Points awarded for…
1. STRIKES
(head out scores body no repeated striking same technique i.e. tapping repeatedly on top of the head).
2. DEFENCE INTO OFFENCE
(Ducking / weaving / blocking into strikes).
3. FOOTWORK
(Show understanding of range).
FOULS:-
One Warning, second foul point deduction.
1. Checking to the Headgear.
2. Checking to the Body.
3. Striking knees or below.
TKO:-
1. Two Disarms in one round.
2. Three Disarms throughout the entire match.
3. In Double Stick as above (if a Fighter is disarmed he will finish the round with only one stick.)


In short, the guy who makes the most noise on the other guy's helmet, and applies the most forward pressure wins.

I think the UWM armour could be fine, provided whatever software they use to monitor the sensors is set up to correctly read the force of a strike. What should happen then is that you'll get a few guys attempting the WEKAF style barrages and losing, then adapting/regressing to a more "realistic" style.

I've been seeing this happen in the FMA community already with the adoption of padded stick rulesets which only score "unanswered" strikes - meaning I have to hit you, then either block or dodge for a short interval or my strike doesn't count.

The potential of the UWM armour to take full power strikes and accurately register them is exciting and I still have some hope that they will live up to their initial hype. Only time will tell I guess.
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