A reconstruction attempt (sabre, 17thC)

Open to public view.

Postby Ulrich von L...n » 23 Jul 2014 06:30

Carletto,

Many sabre fencing enthusiasts in Hungary are well aware of your valuable translation of Marcelli's book, including the guy who has initiated this reconstruction.

In his 7th post about the sabre fencing reconstruction he described the available sources and mentioned your translation:
The earlies known source of saber was Francesko Antonio Marcelli's book, the "Rules of Fencing" (1686) This is not a concrete compilation of techniques, but a good description about the features of saber fening in this ages, focusing especially against rapier. During the research I will use Carlo Parisi's translation, which is available there: HEMAC.

(the original text, without additional corrections)

Thank you for the translation!
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 24 Jul 2014 05:50

A short summary of the first posts:

Part 3: __ Data on Polish sabres from the 17th century
Part 2: __ Data on Hungarian sabres from the 17th century
Part 1: __ A reconstruction project (Introduction)
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 24 Jul 2014 05:53

A short summary of the latest posts:

Part 16: _ Additional data (11 sabres from the Nádasdy Museum)
Part 15: _ An Ottoman source
Part 14: _ Interpretation of guards, contemporary depictions
Part 13: _ A short video on the basic guards

http://kardazelet.blogspot.hu/search/label/szablya
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 02 Sep 2014 06:24

A guy, Gonzalo Cegarra wrote this on the HEMAA forum (on Aug 29, 2014):
"I have been looking for the measurements of the Polish Saber but so far i have not found a thing.
What I am specially interested is the the length of the curvature in the sabre...
"

Keith answered with the following:
"I'm afraid there isn't much information on the subject available free of charge, at least not that I have found. I think the $29 charged by that webstore is quite a reasonable price for that particular book. I don't understand enough Polish for the text to mean much, but even just as a rough reference guide for measurements, general shapes and typologies, I think it is worth the expenditure if you are interested in this type of sabre."

A lot of date (overall length, width at different points of the blade, curvature, CoG etc on both Polish & Hungarian sabres) is available - free of charge - on the blog mentioned in the OP. Probably we could help this guy...
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 03 Sep 2014 07:51

Hungarian sabres from the 17th century:

huszar_cseh.jpg
huszar_cseh.jpg (36.13 KiB) Viewed 7554 times

Dimensions:

Total length: ___________________ 932 mm
Total length (with scabbard): ____ 965 mm
Blade: _________________________ 795 mm
Width (forte): _________________ 31 mm
Width (yelman): ________________ 55 mm
Weight: ________________________ 730 g
W (with scabbard): _____________ 1220 g

Source: unidentified Czech book
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 03 Sep 2014 07:56

huszar_cseh_2.jpg
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Dimensions:

Total length: ___________________ 840 mm
Blade: _________________________ 730 mm
Width (forte): _________________ 33 mm
Width (yelman): ________________ 40 mm
Weight: ________________________ 780 g
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 05 Sep 2014 06:01

harom_kard.jpg
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 05 Sep 2014 06:14

Between Marcelli's book (1686) and Le Marchant's Rules and Regulations (1796) AFAIK we don't have too much on sabres.

In his book Austrian Army of the Napoleonic Wars: Cavalry (1986) Philip J. Haythornthwaite wrote:
"For the first time the 1784 manual discussed fencing with the sabre (instead of relying simply upon a downward chop)" (Page 7).
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 07 Sep 2014 06:27

One of the enemies against whom the Hungarian sabre was used.

Spahi.jpg
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The original (woodcut by Melchior Lorck, 1576)

Sipahi3.jpg
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The copy (1646 (?), Bibliotheque Nationale (?), Paris)

"Lorck produced the most thorough visual record of the life and customs of Turkey in the 16th century, to this day a unique source... Of the three and a half years (1555-1559) that Lorck spent in the Turkish capital, approximately one and a half were spent with the rest of the entourage in confinement at the caravanserai where the Germans had been installed...

In 1555 at the caravanserai, the Elci Hani, Lorck produced engraved portraits of Busbecq and his co-envoys, Ferenc Zay and Antun Vrančić (Antonius Verantius), a few drawings of animals and a view over the rooftops of the city from one of the top windows of the lodging. In the periods of greater freedom however, he drew ancient and modern monuments of the city as well as the customs and dresses of the various peoples gathered from all parts of the Ottoman Empire. At the end of his sojourn, he must have been spending extensive time with the Turkish military, as he was later able to portray a large number of different ranks and nationalities in the Ottoman army
."

It is interesting to note the differences between two images: different shields (the 1576 version depicts a historically - AFAIK - accurate version of so-called Hussar shield), the presence of two estoques (Panzerstecher, for example) attached to the saddle, different headgear.
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 07 Sep 2014 06:30

Another depiction.

Ralamb_Sipahi.jpg
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Sipahi (light Turkish cavalery) from Ralamb Costume Book.
Miniatures in Indian ink with gouache and some gilding.
They were acquired in Constantinople in 1657-58 by Claes Ralamb who led a Swedish embassy.
Date: before 1657, Swedish National Library.
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