Cutlery Penguin wrote:tabiris wrote:Cutlery Penguin wrote:So it rules out wrestling, lpr era pugilism, military sabre from being HEMA? Interesting decision.
I am unsure where you got that conclusion.
HEMA is to be considered separately from modern combat sports such as fencing, wrestling, boxing, savate and similar, since most of the modern sports are based on regulations created from the late nineteenth century onward.
This perhaps? Ringen, pugilism and military sabre can hardly be considered modern sports, though. And the very mention of wrestling and boxing seems indicative of including ringen and classical pugilism to HEMA. A distinction does need to be made, however, otherwise bureaucratic problems might emerge...
It is irrelevant what you "consider" modern sports if we have a specific definition. It clearly states "based on regulations created from the late nineteenth century onward." Waite was 1880, Hutton 1889, and so on. Clearly late nineteenth century. Also the lpr rules for pugilism were still being used in the second half of the nineteenth century. And as to wrestling it is quite clear that if it has an extant lineage with competition then it doesn't count. It makes no attempt to differentiate freestyle wrestling from historical styles, just calls them *wrestling".
So I'd say its pretty clear where I get that impression. From the very specific words they use.
No, it clearly states "modern sports ... based on regulations created from the nineteenth century onwards." Quite an important distinction there.
Anyway, here's a new statement from the IFHEMA website:
One of the aims of IFHEMA is to protect the autonomy of HEMA activities.
Practice, training and competition are among those which demand a special consideration in regard to communicating and co-operating with existent martial arts and martial (or combat) sports.
Modern competitive sports with one-on-one combat - fencing, wrestling, boxing, Savate, and similar -are respected as combat sports in their own right and not as part of HEMA activities, as they are based on sport regulations, which have developed from the late nineteenth century onward into their current form, whereas the practice and study of HEMA still draw from primary historical martial sources; some of them date as early as the early twentieth century.
“Traditional” competitive activities such as Alpine wrestling or cane fighting, which are based on modern regulations, are also considered sport activities in their own right, even if their practices reflect their original forms.
This does not mean that historical evolution and heritage of modern combat sports are not recognized and respected.
However, IFHEMA adopts a stance that even though HEMA and modern combat sports share the same origin, they have branched out from one another into separate autonomous activities.
Due to historical reasons, several martial arts within HEMA may share the same designation with particular modern combat sports - wrestling, fencing, boxing, stick fighting, if we mention but a few.
In order to avoid misunderstanding, IFHEMA pays particular attention to distinguish between them.
Historical self-defence and historical military aspects of combat within European martial heritage – among them fighting with various types of blades, hand-to-hand combat, combat on horseback – are considered a part of HEMA.
If or when HEMA communities identify their need to develop competition elements of their HEMA activities, as well as their practice and training, IFHEMA will need to provide an independent international platform for that development, as well as strive to secure resources.
This includes developing and training of judges, establishing rule sets, co-operating with equipment manufacturers and assisting organizers of events.
So pugilism and sabre most definitely are included.
