7 ways to powerful punching

Open to public view.

7 ways to powerful punching

Postby Cutlery Penguin » 08 Feb 2014 07:59

Oz
Kingslayer 2011

English Martial Arts
Learn Classical Pugilism online!

"Oz deserves to be insulted as he was fairly sarcastic"
User avatar
Cutlery Penguin
Gentleman
 
Posts: 6140
Joined: 14 Mar 2006 19:55
Location: Surrey

Re: 7 ways to powerful punching

Postby MEversbergII » 08 Feb 2014 08:54

Neat, thanks. Quick q - why is stepping with your punch not advocated in hth writings? All writing on the matter swings at the hips from what I know.

M.
When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.

Best Advice on the Whole Site
User avatar
MEversbergII
Major
 
Posts: 876
Joined: 26 Oct 2012 06:00
Location: Lexington Park, Maryland

Re: 7 ways to powerful punching

Postby J Marwood » 08 Feb 2014 12:44

Stepping is advocated by many. Have a look at Championship Boxing for a very good example.
User avatar
J Marwood
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 10560
Joined: 14 Mar 2006 15:45
Location: Laahndan

Re: 7 ways to powerful punching

Postby Cutlery Penguin » 08 Feb 2014 13:31

Its always a compromise between stepping to get the body weight moving, and not being far enough away that the punch is so slow it is easily blocked.

Its a subject I discuss at some length in the eBook Principle Grounds of English Martial Arts.
Oz
Kingslayer 2011

English Martial Arts
Learn Classical Pugilism online!

"Oz deserves to be insulted as he was fairly sarcastic"
User avatar
Cutlery Penguin
Gentleman
 
Posts: 6140
Joined: 14 Mar 2006 19:55
Location: Surrey

Re: 7 ways to powerful punching

Postby mlentzner » 08 Feb 2014 22:41

I've enjoyed the pugilism articles so far, but this one has a few biomechanical points I wouldn't agree with. I was curious if the points here are from the source material or your own opinions?

I don't think straight punches are stronger. They're quicker for sure since a straight path to the target is faster than a circular path. It's also going to be more accurate. But a punch that travels farther also gives your body more time apply force and accelerate the striking implement (in this case, your fist+forearm).

Of course, a lot depends on the person. Someone who isn't good at hooking may very well hit harder with a cross. But all things being equal, my opinion is that round strikes hit harder.

The part about punching with your body-weight is odd to me as well. I guess it depends on what the practical result is. The best strikes are going to be relaxed and whippy. The hand has to be tight and forearm aligned as mentioned, but I really think that the mental model is that you're "throwing" a punch. A baseball can do some damage if thrown hard and there's nothing behind it when it strikes.

Of course, you're not going to be able to hit hard if you are off balance or leaning back. If that's what is meant by using your body weight then I would agree.

I understand if that's what the source material says - hence the lead question. It is certainly possible that these guys weren't fighting in the most optimal way. In the end, it depends on whether the goal is to create authentic old time pugilism or to be as effective as possible.
mlentzner
Private
 
Posts: 14
Joined: 13 Nov 2013 18:32

Re: 7 ways to powerful punching

Postby Cutlery Penguin » 09 Feb 2014 08:24

mlentzner wrote:I've enjoyed the pugilism articles so far, but this one has a few biomechanical points I wouldn't agree with. I was curious if the points here are from the source material or your own opinions?


A combination of both, but I'm happy to discuss them in more detail so you can know which is which.

I don't think straight punches are stronger. They're quicker for sure since a straight path to the target is faster than a circular path. It's also going to be more accurate. But a punch that travels farther also gives your body more time apply force and accelerate the striking implement (in this case, your fist+forearm).

Of course, a lot depends on the person. Someone who isn't good at hooking may very well hit harder with a cross. But all things being equal, my opinion is that round strikes hit harder.


I'd agree that a properly done boxing hook will deliver more energy to the target, but the point about straight punches is that they deliver a lot more of the energy they produce to the target due to the biomechanical structure of the strike. Of course this relies on you accepting that utilising bodyweight instead of muscle power is the best way to generate proper punching power which leads us to your next point.

The part about punching with your body-weight is odd to me as well. I guess it depends on what the practical result is. The best strikes are going to be relaxed and whippy. The hand has to be tight and forearm aligned as mentioned, but I really think that the mental model is that you're "throwing" a punch. A baseball can do some damage if thrown hard and there's nothing behind it when it strikes.


The drop step is a pretty common principle in pugilism and striking arts. Allanson-Winn describes it pretty well, but for the best example of the mechanics of it check out Dempsey's Championship Fighting. Bigger guys hit harder, and it isn't because they have stronger arms, it is because they have more mass. I agree a thrown baseball can cause some damage, but it has a finite momentum due to its limited mass. If we significantly increase the mass by adding to it the body of the person throwing the ball you increase the momentum and therefore the energy imparted to the target.

Of course, you're not going to be able to hit hard if you are off balance or leaning back. If that's what is meant by using your body weight then I would agree.

I understand if that's what the source material says - hence the lead question. It is certainly possible that these guys weren't fighting in the most optimal way. In the end, it depends on whether the goal is to create authentic old time pugilism or to be as effective as possible.


I'm interested to hear where the concept of fast whippy punches thrown with the arms being more powerful than those thrown with the bodyweight behind them comes from.
Oz
Kingslayer 2011

English Martial Arts
Learn Classical Pugilism online!

"Oz deserves to be insulted as he was fairly sarcastic"
User avatar
Cutlery Penguin
Gentleman
 
Posts: 6140
Joined: 14 Mar 2006 19:55
Location: Surrey

Re: 7 ways to powerful punching

Postby Mark Shaw » 10 Feb 2014 05:11

Cutlery Penguin wrote:I'd agree that a properly done boxing hook will deliver more energy to the target


I'm no wrestler CP so I ask you this; how vulnerable do you think the modern close range "power punches" like "the hook" are to grapples employed in pugilsm?

It's very common in present day boxing to see a clinch employed as a defensive tactic when a boxer is being overwhelmed by strikes from their opponent. It's virtually a certainty in any boxing match that the ref will often have to break up the fighters once a clinch occurs; this shows how effective tying up the arms is at foiling punches employed at close range.
This suggests to me that the modern close range power punches (employing torquing at the hips and circular paths etc) would provide pretty good opportunities for a well trained grappler.
Some men a forward motion love,
But I by backward steps would move
-Henry Vaughan
Mark Shaw
Sergeant-Major
 
Posts: 233
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 03:21
Location: The Antipodes

Re: 7 ways to powerful punching

Postby mlentzner » 11 Feb 2014 06:03

Oz,

I suspect that if I were to show you what I thought was a fast, powerful punch you would say it was because I had my weight behind it. And I wouldn't agree, but we would agree that the punch was good. It's probably a semantic argument, which are incredible boring and pointless.

The way I coach it is that power comes from the hips (which are driven by the legs). I liken it to a whip where the hips are the handle and the fist is the tip. It's like a fast moving wave that accelerates as the weight lessens - just like a whip does - obviously not to that degree but the concept is the same. But you need to be relaxed and let your fist basically crash into the target. Having any tension in your arm is just going to slow you down and sap your power. Yes, the antagonistic muscles will kick in if you miss to keep you from injuring your joints or losing your balance, but they shouldn't be if you're landing.

Now, how much of this applies to old timey pugilism is arguable. Your points about not using full power on strikes to preserve your delicate hands is well taken. I think accuracy becomes more important than power - and straight punch are more accurate. If you miss and hit someone's forehead you could very likely break your hand. It doesn't matter if you have your wrists wrapped and big gloves on. You also can't do much against the solar plexus with gloves, but it is interesting how that seems to have been the main body target. Bare knuckles are going to have a much better effect.

From a self defense standpoint I favor attacking the face with straight, well aimed, quick (but not necessarily powerful) strikes. The body with hooks to the liver, spleen, kidneys, and floating ribs. The legs with kicks. You use the elbows and knees to finish someone off because they are much hardier - you can use full power with a lot less risk of self injury. I'm guessing about half of that isn't legal in pugilism.

The one thing I wonder is whether they hadn't developed hooking techniques yet, or whether they chose not to use them for some reason that isn't clear to me yet.
mlentzner
Private
 
Posts: 14
Joined: 13 Nov 2013 18:32

Re: 7 ways to powerful punching

Postby mlentzner » 11 Feb 2014 06:21

Mark,

At least as MMA goes hooks are very useful. And I would say that MMA is even more grappling tilted than pugilism.

Hooks are useful as lead ins to clinching. They are close range so can be used right before the clinch. Also, if you miss then you can easily end up with a collar tie. That gets you to "dirty boxing clinch" in MMA which I believe in the equivalent of a Standing Chancery.

This is all specifically banned in boxing which is why clinching is so safe. You can't do much because it's all against the rules. In an anything goes fight the fighters would be trying to break each other's posture, throw, body slam, trip, etc.

The last time a guy who wasn't as strong as me got a hold of my head to break me down I threw shovel hooks into his body until he decided to let go. Another time I ended got into double under hooks and picked him up for a slam (I didn't actually slam him - we're practicing). Point being, that clinching isn't a spot to be resting like in boxing.
mlentzner
Private
 
Posts: 14
Joined: 13 Nov 2013 18:32

Re: 7 ways to powerful punching

Postby Mark Shaw » 12 Feb 2014 06:08

mlentzner wrote:Mark,

At least as MMA goes hooks are very useful. And I would say that MMA is even more grappling tilted than pugilism...


Cheers thanks for that Mlentzner.
Some men a forward motion love,
But I by backward steps would move
-Henry Vaughan
Mark Shaw
Sergeant-Major
 
Posts: 233
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 03:21
Location: The Antipodes

Re: 7 ways to powerful punching

Postby Hadden » 12 Jul 2014 10:23

I have visited this article.
It provides good tips to make the punch powerful and effective.
Thank for sharing such useful article.
Adam Prowse Personal Trainer,
2/539 High Street Maitland,
New South Wales 2320, Australia
Hadden
Cadet
 
Posts: 4
Joined: 02 Jul 2014 10:19


Return to General Historical Martial Arts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest

cron