Trainers for smallsword

[MEversbergII]

How well suited are Olympic "practice" foils for smallsword drills - particularly paired drills? In sparring I would suspect they would be too flexible, but can they handle practice? Would an "epee" Olymic style blade be better?

I have a practice foil from years back that is just collecting dust and I'm thinking to buy another one for the SO and I to do some smallsword drills (anyone know some good sources? I have the Hope/McBane manual as well as Swordsmanship Without a Master). I have never seen an epee blade first hand, unfortunately, as there are no Olympic fencers that I know (or any groups around here), but I understand their blade profile is more like actual smallswords.

I've been told "foils" were used to train for smallsword, but that was a long time ago and for all I know the modern foil could be to old foils what modern carbon racing bikes are to old English Path Racers.

Thanks,

M.

[knirirr]

A foil could suffice, but I don't think that the modern grips are particularly good. A 32" épée blade with an ambidextrous grip does the job. The épée blade is a lot close to the shape and handling of a small-sword blade, being of triangular section, although the square-section foil blade was also used historically.

If I may plug my book, take a look at "A newer, shorter and easier method of fencing" on Amazon. My recommendations for kit are in the last chapter.

Here's a link: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Newer-Shorter-E ... 956487165/

[Dave B]

I've been told "foils" were used to train for smallsword, but that was a long time ago and for all I know the modern foil could be to old foils what modern carbon racing bikes are to old English Path Racers.

Thanks,

M.

Can be misleading. For a long time a 'Foil' just meant a blade which was foiled (had the end folded over/turned back).


I'd second Milo.
A long tang No.2 Epee blade (I like the Leon Paul best, it's really strong).
http://www.leonpaulusa.com/acatalog/Non ... lades.html
A Foil guard, maybe even an junior foil guard (as the Epee guard is too big)
http://www.leonpaulusa.com/acatalog/Jun ... Guard.html
A simple ambidextrous foil handle (although the shape is horrible, it's much improved by re-shaping to a simple oval with a rasp and then building back up with tape or wolding with cord)
http://www.leonpaulusa.com/acatalog/Amb ... andle.html
and a simple epee pommel
http://www.leonpaulusa.com/acatalog/Epee_Pommel.html

is a cheap and usable and safe smallsword simulator. It looks horrible, and I much preffer a knucklebow, but you can screw it all together in 5 minutes with no tools and you are good to go for 100 dollars (which is rather more expensive for Leon Paul than we pay in the UK, but I'm sure you can get the same sort of bits much cheaper from somewhere else, just make sure you get parts for 'French grip', not 'pistol'.

[MEversbergII]

So it can work in a pinch but is less than ideal, I take it. The foil I have is 35" in the blade, which does make it longer than the epee you mention (which, judging my Fencing.net's offerings, would be a "child sized" blade). Between the two I do prefer the guard on the foil. I'm going to have to shoot them a message and see if I can retrofit an epee blade on a foil's guard/grip. Speaking of which, I didn't see an epee without a French or pistol grip.

Were foils used in period tending to be shorter than modern ones?

Also, for your book, what's a good US source? Could order from the UK but there's none on the U.S. Amazon - claims out of print.

Thanks,

M.

EDIT: Thanks, Dave B - I'll cross check those. I think what I may do is actually start with a stock-basic one and then get crafty in making a more normal "oval" smallsword handle, maybe rig up some bar to slot in for a knucklebow somehow. Will have to scrutinize my foil for how that would work out.

[knirirr]

Also, for your book, what's a good US source? Could order from the UK but there's none on the U.S. Amazon - claims out of print.

The only sources I know are the publisher and amazon.co.uk. It's a nuisance that US Amazon won't stock it, but according to the publishers this is in the hands of middlemen and outside their control.

EDIT: Thanks, Dave B - I'll cross check those. I think what I may do is actually start with a stock-basic one and then get crafty in making a more normal "oval" smallsword handle, maybe rig up some bar to slot in for a knucklebow somehow. Will have to scrutinize my foil for how that would work out.

If you have any basic metalworking skills then a slightly fancier hilt that the Leon Paul model can be made - we have a few like that and I can send photos if that would be of use. The 32" LP blades are worth using whatever hilt you make up.

[Dave B]

A couple of thoughts.

Epee and Foil are both available with french grip, a long straight handle, but French grip Epee is rarer, as french grip is seen as good for drills/training but not competition, so it's often a beginners configuration, and most people start out with foil, so there are fewer 'beginners' epee's. Nonetheless LP do make french grip non-electric epee blades.

I would definitely go for a number 2 (an age up to 14 sword) as it's a more representitive length. Of course some earlier smallswords were longer, but IMHO they would also be heavier, and if you want that sort of thing you'd be better starting from a short rapier blade.

French grip Epee's pretty much all have a long 6mm rod tang, with an M6 thread on the end. French grip foils have two seperate systems, m6 thread, and slotted nut. If you take your existing foil apart and the end of the blade tang just goes straight through to the end, with a thread on, you can jsut get a No.2 epee blade and swap it over.

If you want a nicer handle and grip, then there are some 'SCA' type bits from ZWA that are pretty cheap and a bit more useful. have a read of this old thread:

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19326&p=312588&hilit=smallsword+simulator#p312588

[MEversbergII]

Bummer. Ordering from the UK it is. 40 bucks shipped, not too terribad. What exactly IS your book? A rendering into modern English? I could be horribly mistaken, but I believe I've seen this posted up somewhere in old "Modern" English - replete with the long S and lots of Y's. Drives me mad. Does it include some commentary on the text beyond the kit recommendations?

Shot Fencing.net a Q regarding their gear. Will post up here if I hear back.

If I feel like getting fancy, I've got some metalworking skill (including basic blacksmithing from a ways back). I'm wondering how well my current 35" blade would handle a hacksaw treatment and re-buttoning?

M.

[Dave B]

I really wouldn't cut a blade down. the flex is very much towards the tip, so they become horribly hard and unpleasant for paired drills, and also there are some funny tempers on older foil blades. One reason I don't like foil blades is that as it is they can snap and leave an awfully narrow sharp point, I think that making it stiffer and messing with the temper by cutting and buttoning gives too great a risk of a blade snapping behind the button, especially if you are working with people who don't use a modern fencing jacket (or use a modern jacket but with just tracksuit bottoms).

I really rate the LP no.2 epee blades, but even a normal N0.2 epee practice blade, which are only 20 dollars from places like 'absolute fencing', would be better than a cut down foil in my opinion.

I you want to go really cheapskate, you could buy a complete No.2 practice Epee for less than 40 dollars, and a spare kids foil guard for less than 10, swap the guards and have a pair of practice swords for less than 100 dollars. Mind you, if you go for any cheap blades and like getting into all the fun stuff that's part of smallsword but not allowed in modern fencing, like closing, commanding and disarms, you'll find they take a set and need replacing pretty often which is why I like the LP, which ping back to straight even from being very bent.

[knirirr]

Bummer. Ordering from the UK it is. 40 bucks shipped, not too terribad. What exactly IS your book? A rendering into modern English?
.

It's a book containing my thoughts on how Hope's fencing systems should work, designed to be a short guide for those who don't know much about it and wish to learn it, complete with plenty of photos. It concentrates on the New Method but I also discuss the Vade Mecum.
I've put in a few quotations from the original texts to illustrate my points but it's a modern training guide. Thanks to Dave's comments you now have all you need to construct a training sword, but since you said you fancied a few drills then I thought it might be of use anyway.
Is the Hope/McBane book you've got "The Tartan Book" edited by Mark Rector? If so it's a reprint of the original sources (plus Paul Wagner's essay), and I wrote a modern text as people kept complaining that the originals were a bit turgid.

[MEversbergII]

I really wouldn't cut a blade down. the flex is very much towards the tip, so they become horribly hard and unpleasant for paired drills, and also there are some funny tempers on older foil blades. One reason I don't like foil blades is that as it is they can snap and leave an awfully narrow sharp point, I think that making it stiffer and messing with the temper by cutting and buttoning gives too great a risk of a blade snapping behind the button, especially if you are working with people who don't use a modern fencing jacket (or use a modern jacket but with just tracksuit bottoms).

I really rate the LP no.2 epee blades, but even a normal N0.2 epee practice blade, which are only 20 dollars from places like 'absolute fencing', would be better than a cut down foil in my opinion.

I you want to go really cheapskate, you could buy a complete No.2 practice Epee for less than 40 dollars, and a spare kids foil guard for less than 10, swap the guards and have a pair of practice swords for less than 100 dollars. Mind you, if you go for any cheap blades and like getting into all the fun stuff that's part of smallsword but not allowed in modern fencing, like closing, commanding and disarms, you'll find they take a set and need replacing pretty often which is why I like the LP, which ping back to straight even from being very bent.

I think what I'll do is discard my foil blade in exchange for a #2 epee, then buy another epee with a foil guard. Epee guards sure as hellaciously ugly. I'm assuming all the parts use some standards enough that an epee grip/guard/pommel can work with a foil blade (etc). I'd save a couple bucks that way. Or I could buy a second complete foil and an epee blade - would cost more, but I could switch it to foils should I ever find the need. Are child guards smaller than adult ones? Adults are already pretty small (though giant compared to small swords in period).

I'll stick with this mish-mash until I feel sufficiently crafy enough to "smallswordize" it. Maybe I can churn out a few conversion kits for the forumites when I work it out.

I don't know what "commanding" and "Closing" refer to, but it they're going to be hard on the blades I might have to take it easy. If it turns out the SO and I take well to small sword, I'd still be able to upgrade to harder LP blades, anyways. We most certainly wouldn't be starting out with freeplay!

How are epee blades compared to foil? As I mentioned I've never seen them in person. I just know their game rules are different (which might explain the ugly guard).

Bummer. Ordering from the UK it is. 40 bucks shipped, not too terribad. What exactly IS your book? A rendering into modern English?
.

It's a book containing my thoughts on how Hope's fencing systems should work, designed to be a short guide for those who don't know much about it and wish to learn it, complete with plenty of photos. It concentrates on the New Method but I also discuss the Vade Mecum.
I've put in a few quotations from the original texts to illustrate my points but it's a modern training guide. Thanks to Dave's comments you now have all you need to construct a training sword, but since you said you fancied a few drills then I thought it might be of use anyway.
Is the Hope/McBane book you've got "The Tartan Book" edited by Mark Rector? If so it's a reprint of the original sources (plus Paul Wagner's essay), and I wrote a modern text as people kept complaining that the originals were a bit turgid.

Oh good. So it's square one, giving me enough info to move onto more? Is there a good rendering of the Vade Mecum / New Method that uses modern modern English? Very into "modern training guides" as, like you mention, books that just transcribe remain rather stifling.

The book I have is "Highland Swordsmanship". I will admit to not having gotten far into it. At the time, all my WMA energy was focused on my club, and they were all about "practical combatives". The book is also a dull read, where I was. It had gone MIA after my last move and I thought I'd lost it but it turned up last night (along with a few other MIA WMA books). Might give it another go eventually.

M.

[knirirr]

I don't know what "commanding" and "Closing" refer to, but it they're going to be hard on the blades I might have to take it easy. If it turns out the SO and I take well to small sword, I'd still be able to upgrade to harder LP blades, anyways. We most certainly wouldn't be starting out with freeplay!

Grappling with the opponent at very close quarters. If you're unlucky, and end up rolling on the floor, then even good blades may take some punishment.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/knirirr/12290185103/

Is there a good rendering of the Vade Mecum / New Method that uses modern modern English?

I certainly hope that it's a good rendering. It was difficult to do good photos for this section, though.

The book I have is "Highland Swordsmanship". I will admit to not having gotten far into it. At the time, all my WMA energy was focused on my club, and they were all about "practical combatives". The book is also a dull read, where I was. It had gone MIA after my last move and I thought I'd lost it but it turned up last night (along with a few other MIA WMA books). Might give it another go eventually.

That's the one of which I was thinking. It gives the complete text (New Method) upon which my book is based.

[Dave B]

Like I say, there are two different mounting systems for foil. If you unscrew your foil pommel and the tang has an M6 thread (6mm / just under 1/4 inch) thread for about an inch at the end, then it is all interchangeable with french grip Epee. If it has no thread and a narrow bit, with a nut that slots on and then is locked in place by the pommel, then it isn't interchangeable apart from the guard.

Child size foil guards are about half an inch smaller, IMO that's nearer the right size. In Epee the hand and arm is a target, but the guard is very big, and is used as a shield allowing the hand to be kept very extended as long as your hand position is right. Many smallsword systems target the hand, so a bit guard is 'cheating'. Also several systems do disarms or commanding (holding the other guys sword or swordarm whilst you stab them or threaten them into submission) by taking hold of the guard/shell, and this can only be done properly with approximately the right size guard.

Epee blades are just a little stiffer and stronger than foil, but also they have an edge alignment - they are thicker and therefore stiffer in one direction than the other. Foil blades are pretty much square, and foilists parry with front, back, or side. Having an edge alignment (even though there is no actual edge) is important in smallsword, where treatises direct you to carry out an action with the front or back edge, even though there is no cutting edge.

Milo's (Knirr's) book is excellent by the way. I'd also recommend having a look at Angelo's school of fencing, as it's probably the most 'mainstream' the one that most reflects 'typical' french smallsword. It's available online, and it's not too hard to read once you get the hang of the terminology. nice pictures too.
http://www.hroarr.com/manuals/sabre-cutlass-broadsword-rapier/Angelo_-_School_of_Fencing.pdf

[Phil C]

I've been told "foils" were used to train for smallsword... for all I know the modern foil could be to old foils what modern carbon racing bikes are to old English Path Racers.

Just to clarify this point- the main difference between then and now was in the stiffness of the blade.

Historically foils were very rigid; to the extent that heavily padded foil gloves were worn to protect the sword hand in the event of a breakage, otherwise a modern foil is not hugely different. One text even recommends removing the hilt so that students do not come to rely on it so you don't even need one of those, which is why the lunette or figure-8 hilt developed as a compromise to give minimal hand protection and ensure net technique.

Early grips were also straight without the modern bend in the grip making it left or right handed, as is the norm now but that's a minor point in general but can affect your ability to grip correctly, which can vary with different texts. I've added a pic of an original to make this clearer.

BTW some free smallsword texts can be found here:http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/PhilCrawley

[MEversbergII]

Like I say, there are two different mounting systems for foil. If you unscrew your foil pommel and the tang has an M6 thread (6mm / just under 1/4 inch) thread for about an inch at the end, then it is all interchangeable with french grip Epee. If it has no thread and a narrow bit, with a nut that slots on and then is locked in place by the pommel, then it isn't interchangeable apart from the guard.

Child size foil guards are about half an inch smaller, IMO that's nearer the right size. In Epee the hand and arm is a target, but the guard is very big, and is used as a shield allowing the hand to be kept very extended as long as your hand position is right. Many smallsword systems target the hand, so a bit guard is 'cheating'. Also several systems do disarms or commanding (holding the other guys sword or swordarm whilst you stab them or threaten them into submission) by taking hold of the guard/shell, and this can only be done properly with approximately the right size guard.

Epee blades are just a little stiffer and stronger than foil, but also they have an edge alignment - they are thicker and therefore stiffer in one direction than the other. Foil blades are pretty much square, and foilists parry with front, back, or side. Having an edge alignment (even though there is no actual edge) is important in smallsword, where treatises direct you to carry out an action with the front or back edge, even though there is no cutting edge.

Milo's (Knirr's) book is excellent by the way. I'd also recommend having a look at Angelo's school of fencing, as it's probably the most 'mainstream' the one that most reflects 'typical' french smallsword. It's available online, and it's not too hard to read once you get the hang of the terminology. nice pictures too.
http://www.hroarr.com/manuals/sabre-cutlass-broadsword-rapier/Angelo_-_School_of_Fencing.pdf

I'll get myself a copy of Milo's book shortly. Sounds like a good place to start. I tried "The Militiaman's Manual" a long while back and it was wholly confusing. If nothing else Milo's book would make a good addition to my library!

I've been told "foils" were used to train for smallsword... for all I know the modern foil could be to old foils what modern carbon racing bikes are to old English Path Racers.

Just to clarify this point- the main difference between then and now was in the stiffness of the blade.

Historically foils were very rigid; to the extent that heavily padded foil gloves were worn to protect the sword hand in the event of a breakage, otherwise a modern foil is not hugely different. One text even recommends removing the hilt so that students do not come to rely on it so you don't even need one of those, which is why the lunette or figure-8 hilt developed as a compromise to give minimal hand protection and ensure net technique.

Early grips were also straight without the modern bend in the grip making it left or right handed, as is the norm now but that's a minor point in general but can affect your ability to grip correctly, which can vary with different texts. I've added a pic of an original to make this clearer.

BTW some free smallsword texts can be found here:http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/PhilCrawley

Thanks for the link. Might have scooped some of those up already and forgotten about them.

Ah, the lunette guard! When I was talking about knucklebow above I was thinking maybe I could also machine one of those out sometime with some simple tools. For looks, basically. I found this site: http://benjaminarms.com/catalog/foil

Makes his own, about 20USD for a simple one. Leon Paul has a fancy one, but only in the UK - US site seems to be lacking.

I think if it sticks I'll try my hand at making my own grip. Perfect excuse to get crafty.

Alright so my shopping list is:

* Milo's Book, "A newer, shorter and easier method of fencing" (I'll go order that now)
* Two Complete, Non Electric Practice Epee, #2 Blade
* Two "Child Sized" Foil Guards

I'll go with the less expensive options at Absolute Fencing right now (prices a bit better than Fencing.net). If it "sticks" with us, I may upgrade to the Leon Paul ones. That would also give me a spare pair of modified epee for "guests", should I feel confident to introduce this to my on-again-off-again WMA group (they don't go for swords, by and large, though).

As I feel crafty I'll mess with giving it a nicer guard, knucklebow, etc. If nothing else, I can make these look really spiffy.

My extant foil I suppose will be left to it's lonesome, though I do know someone else who has one so perhaps we can perform the drills at hand with each set to see how they differ. Academics! (I do the same with Medieval Dagger using plastic KABAR and wooden rondell daggers)

Come to think, this is all rather fitting, as my SO has thought about making a matching pair of smallswords part of our wedding regalia. I think she chose smallswords because they're naturally rather "dressy" looking, as opposed to the myriad other medieval weapons I have actual experience with!

Polearms for the Best Men, though. Gotta do the polearm arch. Let's see...that's Pascha's department isn't it? :p

Expect here sometime I'll be going on about not getting something in one of these books - I tend to do that.

Thanks,

M.

[Turmine]

I'm using an Epee with a stiff blade for McBane and it is doing nicely ... there are times of course when you want a flat blade rather than an Epee type blade to assist in completing proper mechanical actions, but I have found if you already understand the flat blade dynamics then you already know what the Epee ought to be doing. I have considered recently buying a double wide Epee blade and sticking a Foil guard on it ... it is a cheap option if you can find an inexpensive double wide.

T.

[Dave B]

Two things

Firstly I'd question whether a flat blade is necessarily more representative than a triangular section for example Liancour (1686, a little earlier than McBane, but he's what I have to hand) writes: ‘to find out how good it (the blade) is, it is useful to look at it all over, from the point to the spike (tang), on top of the crest (central ridge), and on the underside if the blade only has three edges, and above the two crests if the blade has four edges.. I've seen original smallswords with both flattened triangular sections and flattened diamonds.

Secondly, I'd be a little wary of double wide epee blades. I tried this, but they are very stiff. It's very hard to do good drills with such a stiff blade. Personally I think that you need to drill or assault by hitting your training partner as though you wanted to put the point 4-6 inches inside them, and letting the blade flex. If you try this with the double wide Epee I bought, you run out of training partners quite quickly. Of course you could argue that a very stiff blade is more authentic, but I'm not sure given the advice in several sources about testing a fencing sword by putting the tip against the wall and putting a big bend in the blade then checking that it springs back straight. Either way I think it's more important to be able to train with intent, rather than have a simulator which encourages you to 'break' the straight line of the arm to avoid breaking your training partner.

[Dave B]

Two things

Firstly I'd question whether a flat blade is necessarily more representative than a triangular section for example Liancour (1686, a little earlier than McBane, but he's what I have to hand) writes: ‘to find out how good it (the blade) is, it is useful to look at it all over, from the point to the spike (tang), on top of the crest (central ridge), and on the underside if the blade only has three edges, and above the two crests if the blade has four edges.. I've seen original smallswords with both flattened triangular sections and flattened diamonds.

Secondly, I'd be a little wary of double wide epee blades. I tried this, but they are very stiff. It's very hard to do good drills with such a stiff blade. Personally I think that you need to drill or assault by hitting your training partner as though you wanted to put the point 4-6 inches inside them, and letting the blade flex. If you try this with the double wide Epee I bought, you run out of training partners quite quickly. Of course you could argue that a very stiff blade is more authentic, but I'm not sure given the advice in several sources about testing a fencing sword by putting the tip against the wall and putting a big bend in the blade then checking that it springs back straight. Either way I think it's more important to be able to train with intent, rather than have a simulator which encourages you to 'break' the straight line of the arm to avoid breaking your training partner.

[Turmine]

G'day Dave!

Can't disagree with any of that, in my humble opinion it really depends on what school of Small Sword you are engaged in, I believe McBane calls for a flat rather than triangular blade. Regarding the weapon itself, you can switch between flat and triangular sections which is precisely what I am doing with the use of Epee in McBane and still perform the same actions - the dynamics are a little different however. My Epee blade is a fairly stiff FIE job but it still has flex. You want a stiffer Epee blade to assist in certain blade actions, where if using a modern Foil blade I think there is just way too much give there and the section is square rather than triangular.

With regards the use of a trainer, I agree that having a weapon that will flex is certainly preferable when performing full blooded actions on a live partner in free play or drills - but I think a flat can also be very useful and helpful when performing other kinds of drills, not just static but also for free play - it is done with Rapiers and it can be done in the case of Small Sword with care and control. Mind you a flat blade need not be utterly stiff anyway, I have a Hutton Sabre that when engaged for a thrust will flex safely - it also helps to have a good button on there!

P.S I have a purpose made Fencing dummy at home that I can perform full blooded actions upon, with intent, that serves me well ... best of both worlds there and a fantastic drilling aid.

Cheers.

[MEversbergII]

Just got Milo's book in today! Going to make a point to try and get through it this week (I'm horrible at this).

M.

[knirirr]

Just got Milo's book in today! Going to make a point to try and get through it this week (I'm horrible at this).

Thanks - please post to let us know how you get on.