Early history of the modern fencing: sabre, ...

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Re: Early history of the modern fencing: sabre, ...

Postby Chris Holzman » 11 Nov 2012 04:20

I'm not sure what to think of it. I don't think it's a parry sixth/sesta/sixte. While the parry sixth in Italian/Italo-Hungarian sabre is taken with the point reasonably forward of a line perpendicular to the line of direction, it is not taken that forward. Anything where the direct line to the head is left open really just doesn't make sense with that parry and that context. I think its pretty likely these guys are doing something else. What, I don't know... If that were presented to me by a student as a parry of sixth, I would have to correct the position.
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Re: Early history of the modern fencing: sabre, ...

Postby Jeremy S. » 11 Nov 2012 18:07

Joachim Meyer (Forgeng translation) wrote:High Guard on the Left
Stand with your right foot in front as before, hold your weapon with the hilt up by your left side, with your arm extended upward, so that the point stands against the opponent's face; and thus you stand correctly in the High Guard of the Ox on the left.

Ox on the right shows the arm at almost full extension above the head, presumably Ox on the left would be the same, so not quite the same as the pictured sabre guard.
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/File:Meyer_1570_Rapier_B.jpg (large figure on the right)

Leckuchner's Stier on the left is illustrated almost identically though (if you squint)
Johannes Leckuchner (Fritz translation) wrote:The fourth guard is called Stier. Hold it like this. Stand with your left foot in front and hold your Messer to your right [original text: “left”] side in front of your head, letting the back edge face you and the point towards the face. Stand in the Stier on the other side as pictured below.

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/File:CGM_582_34r.jpg
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 12 Nov 2012 08:44

I'm not sure that it is a proper guard, or just a parry, or just a good-looking-something for a photo.

It is good to be sceptical when you have encountered something very unusual.

I have received the answer from the guy who attends fencing lessons of this new sabre group. He says that an exercise called six-cuts is a regular thing during those lessons, and there is a variation of it, when after every cut they immediately execute a thrust. So this "Unicorn parry" just a transitional phase of that exercise, and shows a moment directly after Cut 3 (Roworth, cutting the inside of your opponent's right knee) and immediately before a thrust.

So unfortunately there is no new Hungarian guard or parry, just a good and dynamic photo for an online article.
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Re:

Postby Tyler Brandon » 12 Nov 2012 19:41

Ulrich von L...n wrote:
I'm not sure that it is a proper guard, or just a parry, or just a good-looking-something for a photo.

It is good to be sceptical when you have encountered something very unusual.

I have received the answer from the guy who attends fencing lessons of this new sabre group. He says that an exercise called six-cuts is a regular thing during those lessons, and there is a variation of it, when after every cut they immediately execute a thrust. So this "Unicorn parry" just a transitional phase of that exercise, and shows a moment directly after Cut 3 (Roworth, cutting the inside of your opponent's right knee) and immediately before a thrust.

So unfortunately there is no new Hungarian guard or parry, just a good and dynamic photo for an online article.


Still, it was all very interesting, and it's a great drill.
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 22 Nov 2012 14:58

I have started to upload images from Gusztáv von Arlow's book (Sabre fencing, 1902). Within a couple of days I will complete this task, and will write a short summary, post the Hungarian inscriptions of the images.

http://szablyavivas.blogspot.hu/2012_11_01_archive.html
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Re: Early history of the modern fencing: sabre, ...

Postby admin » 23 Nov 2012 11:50

Nice. That all looks rather like Hutton to me, except for the engaging guard.
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 23 Nov 2012 18:08

Captain Gustav Arlow was a certified military fencing instructor, then he left the K. u. K. Army, opened his own salle and became a certified fencing master of the Italian sabre fencing as taught by Luigi Barbasetti in Vienna.
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Re:

Postby Chris Holzman » 25 Nov 2012 19:26

Ulrich von L...n wrote:Captain Gustav Arlow was a certified military fencing instructor, then he left the K. u. K. Army, opened his own salle and became a certified fencing master of the Italian sabre fencing as taught by Luigi Barbasetti in Vienna.


Which begs the question that I'm curious about, and that I know Russ Mitchell would be super curious about - what was K.u.K. teaching, and do we know how it compared to what might be seen in the Honved in late 19th early 20th century?
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 26 Nov 2012 08:07

Barbasetti was invited to Vienna in 1894, then in 1895 there was a big international fencing competition with an overwhelming success of the Italian system. Starting from that this sabre system was the official fencing method in the K. u. K. Army. In 1899 Barbasetti's book was translated into German by two Austrian officers: K. u. K. Liniensschiffs-Lieutenant Rudolf Brosch and Oberlieutenant Heinrich Tenner.

Before 1895 they used the Hoch-Terz method of sabre fencing. There are some books on this method so it will be possible to find out more. It seems to me that the same thing was used both in Austria and in Hungary. The Honvédség - Hungarian Royal Defence Force (1867-1918) - was part of the joint K. u. K. Army.

"1895:
Im Jänner kommt es zur Gründung des "Union Fecht-Clubs". Sein Fechtmeister wird Luigi Barbasetti von der Scuola Magistrale di Scherma in Rom. Barbasetti war einer der erfrolgreichsten Fechter seiner Zeit. Der UFC ist der älteste noch existierende Fechtverein in Wien. Beginn des modernen Sportfechtens in Wien. Im Juni desselben Jahres findet das erste internationale Turnier in der Monarchie statt. Die Italienische Schule kann eindrucksvoll ihre Überlegenheit über die bisherige Fechtform beweisen. Als Folge übernimmt der "Militärische Turn- und Fechtleherekurs" in Wiener Neustadt die neue Schule. Damit ist Sie die offizielle Lehrmethode in Österreich."

http://www.vereinsmeier.at/1080/fechten ... =148463010

P.S.:
I know Russ Mitchell would be super curious about
Due to his Hungarian connection, with Csaba Hidán :wink:
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Re:

Postby Chris Holzman » 26 Nov 2012 21:52

Ulrich von L...n wrote:Barbasetti was invited to Vienna in 1894, then in 1895 there was a big international fencing competition with an overwhelming success of the Italian system. Starting from that this sabre system was the official fencing method in the K. u. K. Army. In 1899 Barbasetti's book was translated into German by two Austrian officers: K. u. K. Liniensschiffs-Lieutenant Rudolf Brosch and Oberlieutenant Heinrich Tenner.

Before 1895 they used the Hoch-Terz method of sabre fencing. There are some books on this method so it will be possible to find out more. It seems to me that the same thing was used both in Austria and in Hungary. The Honvédség - Hungarian Royal Defence Force (1867-1918) - was part of the joint K. u. K. Army.

"1895:
Im Jänner kommt es zur Gründung des "Union Fecht-Clubs". Sein Fechtmeister wird Luigi Barbasetti von der Scuola Magistrale di Scherma in Rom. Barbasetti war einer der erfrolgreichsten Fechter seiner Zeit. Der UFC ist der älteste noch existierende Fechtverein in Wien. Beginn des modernen Sportfechtens in Wien. Im Juni desselben Jahres findet das erste internationale Turnier in der Monarchie statt. Die Italienische Schule kann eindrucksvoll ihre Überlegenheit über die bisherige Fechtform beweisen. Als Folge übernimmt der "Militärische Turn- und Fechtleherekurs" in Wiener Neustadt die neue Schule. Damit ist Sie die offizielle Lehrmethode in Österreich."

http://www.vereinsmeier.at/1080/fechten ... =148463010

P.S.:
I know Russ Mitchell would be super curious about
Due to his Hungarian connection, with Csaba Hidán :wink:


Yep... and there are certainly some elements in tactical choice of false edge cuts in the system of sabre that learned through Maestro Hootman (through Santelli, and Nick Toth), and the basic diagonal cut pattern/choice of cut, as well as some other things, that I have very much in common with Russ - and a whole lot, of course, that isn't common at all... We've had a bit of a project over the years, for the fun of it, of trying to really isolate the purely Hungarian elements and identify them..
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 27 Nov 2012 08:04

There is very little information about Hungarian sabre fencing before 1820-1830, after that a couple of books, written mainly by foreign fencing masters living in Hungary, were published. Those foreigners probably just adapted French / Italian foil to local "requirements", and created an interesting mixture between foil and sabre, then we have the Keresztessy school of sabre fencing (1851-1894), but again no books, no surviving lineage, just a few descriptions.

So it is very difficult to isolate older, Hungarian elements in the Italo-Hungarian system. Arlow wrote in his book that he had learned the whole Italian system, but didn't follow it blindly, and tried to preserve some elements of the older system.
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 29 Nov 2012 08:47

All images from Gusztáv von Arlow's book - Kardvívás (Sabre Fencing), 1902 - have been uploaded to:

http://szablyavivas.blogspot.hu/2012_11_01_archive.html
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 06 Dec 2012 09:04

1895_competition.jpg
1895_competition.jpg (30.28 KiB) Viewed 12075 times

The first national fencing competition in Hungary was organised by the Hungarian Athletic Club (MAC) in 1895, Budapest.

Normal size (354 kB):
http://keptar.oszk.hu/036600/036622/189 ... _172_d.jpg

Large (1278 kB):
http://keptar.oszk.hu/036600/036622/189 ... agykep.jpg
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 13 Dec 2012 07:51

It is worth noting that the same type of piste - elevated, with end barriers - was used at the Olympic Games in Athen. Another interesting detail: the main judge has a sabre, basically follows the general arrangement at a normal sabre duel.
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 13 Dec 2012 07:58

The winner of the first Hungarian fencing competition (category: sabre, amateurs):
Gyula Iványi (on the left) with his teacher, Zsiga Halász

1895_172_c.jpg
1895_172_c.jpg (21 KiB) Viewed 12032 times

Better resolution:
http://keptar.oszk.hu/036600/036621/189 ... agykep.jpg
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Re: Early history of the modern fencing: sabre, ...

Postby Thearos » 18 Dec 2012 00:30

I was browsing a sales catalogue lately, and noticing these light, "picquet" or "levee" swords-- variants on the 1822 or 1845 infantry models, just a lot thinner and lighter in the blade. From the catalogue description, I understand these to be dress variants on the normal infantry swords.

I wonder if these swords-- which seem to be light, scaled down sabre blades, and meant to be worn in town rather than in the field-- aren't rather like duelling /sporting sabres-- are they modelled on such sabres, or on the contrary the models for these sabres ?
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 26 Dec 2012 09:41

Training weapons from the late 19thC and the early 20thC, Hungary:

gyakorlo_szolnok.jpg
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 26 Dec 2012 09:44

A close-up of the hilts:

gyakorlok.jpg
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Re:

Postby Chris Holzman » 27 Dec 2012 04:54

Ulrich von L...n wrote:Training weapons from the late 19thC and the early 20thC, Hungary:

gyakorlo_szolnok.jpg



The blade of the second one down from the top is very much like my two antiques - one of which is missing about the same amount of the tip..
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Re: Early history of the modern fencing: sabre, ...

Postby admin » 27 Dec 2012 09:26

Thearos wrote:I was browsing a sales catalogue lately, and noticing these light, "picquet" or "levee" swords-- variants on the 1822 or 1845 infantry models, just a lot thinner and lighter in the blade. From the catalogue description, I understand these to be dress variants on the normal infantry swords.

I wonder if these swords-- which seem to be light, scaled down sabre blades, and meant to be worn in town rather than in the field-- aren't rather like duelling /sporting sabres-- are they modelled on such sabres, or on the contrary the models for these sabres ?


I don't think there is any relation (though nobody can be 100% certain). For a start, levee weight swords were not generally 'prooved' like the field weight swords were and therefore they seem to have been made purely with dressing up in mind (I believe this is even true of the Wilkinson ones). They seem to have resulted in similar looking blades, but for very different motivations.
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