Early history of the modern fencing: sabre, ...

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Re: Early history of the modern fencing: sabre, ...

Postby Thearos » 31 Dec 2018 04:45

Isn't this just a gymnasium sabre of typical C19th vintage and shape ?
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Re: Early history of the modern fencing: sabre, ...

Postby Bob Sp » 31 Dec 2018 17:54

It is labelled "Horthy Era" which is the first half of the 20th century, if I am not mistaken.
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Re: Early history of the modern fencing: sabre, ...

Postby Ulrich von L...n » 01 Jan 2019 11:39

Bob Sp wrote:It is labelled "Horthy Era"...


Yes, it is. Horthy Era = 1919 (1920) till 1944.
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Re: Early history of the modern fencing: sabre, ...

Postby Ulrich von L...n » 01 Jan 2019 11:42

Thearos wrote:...a gymnasium sabre of typical C19th vintage...


It is possible to identify the marking of the blade, also the backstrap etc. Later I will write a short summary about that sabre.
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Re:

Postby Bob Sp » 01 Jan 2019 18:50

Ulrich von L...n wrote:
The English description of NFM - HuT 95.3.1 at the Nádasdy Museum:



It is poignant to me to see this in the Nadasdy museum. I knew the last Ference when he lived in Canada. He was a very active fencer. I didn't have much contact with him after he moved back to Hungary and became involved in his foundation. By good luck I was able to talk to him on the phone on his birthday of the year year he passed on.
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 01 Jan 2019 19:55

Bob,

It is really fascinating that a misidentified training sabre was needed to talk about the last Nádasdy.

Ferenc Nádasdy (1 July 1937 – 15 January 2013)[1] was a Hungarian aristocrat, the last male member of the House of Nádasdy.

At the moment I am reading an interview with him (2003) where he talks about his fencing years.
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Re: Early history of the modern fencing: sabre, ...

Postby Bob Sp » 01 Jan 2019 21:38

Here is a picture of Frank (as we knew him) from the late 1970's at a fencing event.
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 02 Jan 2019 08:29

Is it possible to identify the event?
What were his fencing results in Canada?
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 02 Jan 2019 09:31

What kind of clues have we from the photos of Hussar "rapier"?

On the forte of the blade there is a marking (let's call it ladder). [1] The very same marking can be seen in Barbasetti's book (1899): Fig. 1. Das Erfassen des Säbels (~= Gripping of the sabre)

Backstrap: absolutely the same can be found in Souzy's catalogue (1913: item 184) for Italian sabres: Radaelli (item 403), Sestini (404), Masielo (405).

The guard of the sword doesn't have a characteristic small feature as in Barbasetti's book. [2]
So it might happen that the guard itself is a more modern part of the sword.
________________________________________________________________________
1. At the moment I don't know the manufacturer's name.
2. A small curvy part on the backstrap side of the guard.
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 05 Jan 2019 15:35

Just have checked the Hungarian title of NFM - HuT 95.3.1 at the Nádasdy Museum.
It reads: "Huszártiszti vívótőr" = Hussar officer's foil.
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 08 Jan 2019 08:21

https://img.index.hu/imgfrm/9/1/1/5/BIG_0014999115.jpg

Leszák teaches at Ludovika Military Academy (Budapest).
His name was mentioned a couple of times in this topic.
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 08 Jan 2019 08:24

A nice collection of vintage fencing swords (Radaelli, Parise etc) from MyArmoury site.

http://myarmoury.com/talk/files/18t6jsr0cj8z_803.jpg
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 03 Mar 2019 07:01

On 24 May 2013 I wrote (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18591&p=324031#p324031) about the private collection of fencing artifacts owned by Árpád Németh, retired Hungarian fencing coach. At that time the collection was located at Nefeco.hu.

Last year a new site - called Fencing Museum - was created, and the high resolution photos of artifacts (175 items) were moved there.

http://vivomuzeum.hu/termekkategoria/ne ... ollection/
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 03 Mar 2019 07:04

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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 21 Mar 2019 06:17

A few weeks ago interesting pictures were posted on a Hungarian FB page. With a little search I have found the original images. An early attempt to introduce women's sabre fencing (1923):

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Z6oAAOSw ... -l1600.jpg

One could observe the types of fencing sabres used at that time: Radaelli model (standing, right), Pecoraro model with "nickel plated steel guard with rolled edges" (sitting girls). Different guards can be seen in the Vince Catalogue (1938):

download/file.php?id=483

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/e9wAAOSw ... -l1600.jpg

An older Sestini model with a backstrap.
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 21 Mar 2019 06:19

Further details.

"The women’s fencing team held their initial practice yesterday morning under the direction of Professor Pietro Lanzilli at his fencing studio, 1521 K Street Northwest.

Fencing was introduced in George Washington University last year, and for the first season about twenty-five girls reported for practice. This year at least four of that squad will be available as a nucleus around which to build a strong team for the coming season.


Professor Lanzilli, who has been secured as fencing instructor for the University squad, is an excellent instructor and is very enthusiastic over the prospects for a successful season. He teaches the Italian method of fencing which, while it is harder than the French method, gives a better foundation for progressive fencing.

Uniforms for the most part are nondescript, but by the end of the season it is hoped that regular fencing equipment will be available. Plans have already been made for the purchase of additional foils and masks.

Practice periods have been arranged for Mondays from 9 to 12, Tuesdays and Thursdays from 7 to 8, and on Fridays from 10 to 12, at Professor Lanzilli’s studio, 1521 K Street. Girls interested in fencing should get in touch with Phoebe Knappen, manager, or report at the studio during the regular practice periods.
"

https://archive.org/stream/gwu_hatchet_ ... 4_djvu.txt

An article from "...the independent student-run newspaper The GW Hatchet..." (George Washington University, 1924)
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 05 Apr 2019 18:50

A few days ago I have found that two, relatively unknown sabre fencing treatises of August Hermann, printed in 1859 and 1861, are available online. The links can be found in the 19thC Treatises section.

Some pictures from these fencing books have been inserted in the last post of my blog.

http://szablyavivas.blogspot.com/2019/0 ... -1861.html
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 22 May 2019 11:05

A short summary of what we know about Italian fencing master Angelo Torricelli.
Finally the year of birth and of death have been found, also some other biographical tidbits.

http://szablyavivas.blogspot.com/2019/0 ... celli.html
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Postby Ulrich von L...n » 22 Mar 2020 09:48

An informative thread at MIlitary & Classical Sabre FB-group.

Part I

"Hutton in his work "Cold Steel" reccomended a lighter sabre instead of the "cumbersome weapons" in vogue in England. Does anyone know specifically what models or styles he was referring to in either case, or if he ever made comment on weight/length? <CS 2. oldala, utána The Parts of the Sabre>

Jordan Williams
Juste Le Wojax what would the English school saber be? I've had some Austrian and "Prussian style" gymnasium sabres with weights around 750 - 800 grams. Quite nimble

Peter Pataki
The 1864 pattern gymnasium sabre would have been in widespread use for army training when Cold Steel came out.

Chris Holzman
He is talking about the typical Italian sabre of the era, which is what was in primary use on the continent at the time. 88cm long 20mm blade tapering to a 10mm point, pob somewhere between 7-11cm from the guard. Bare blades are usually in the 325-350g range, with a total weight somewhere between 720-780g depending on how big of a guard we're talking. These blades, historically, are much more flexible than the typical hema-crowbar, as well.

The Italian school he's making reference to is that of Parise, which was the official method of the Italian army at the time (though only in name - the Italian cavalry refused to adopt it, keeping to the Radaellian method, and Parise himself hired two of Radaelli's top assistants as his own assistants when his school became official in 1884).

Chris Holzman
Or, anyway, that's what the military tournament regs were. The typical fencing sabres of the era in Italy and elsewhere on the continent ranged from 15-20mm blades, and total weight of around 600-780g or so, again, depending on how much guard we're talking. Radaelli specd an 89cm long 350g blade and a 370g hilt (total of 720g) - those tend to balance about 10-11cm from the guard.

Chris Holzman
This is, of course, why I chuckle so much when people talk about "Hutton sabres" - because he's really giving people nothing to work with, and if they don't know the fencing history, they're gonna be lost.

Chris Holzman
Chris Holzman When I comment about how much guard we’re talking, here is a great example. The decorative reinforcer plate here adds 40g of unnecessary weight to an already robust guard on this pre-1860 Hoppe cavalry trainer. Blade is 350g, and total weight is 772g. It’s much handier feeling at 730g with the extra plate removed.

Patrick Nicholas
Basically just get an Italian dueling sabre, 750 grams or lighter. Also, Hutton is just watered down Parise.

Jeff Richardson
Huuton is Angelo..... with a bunch of Italian influence. His core starter drills are taken straight from Angelo.

Jim Bensinger
Jim Bensinger it seems to me that a method that needs a lighter gymnasium saber to work isnae going to work at all with a fighting-weight live blade. I could be wrong...

Patrick Nicholas
Jim Bensinger think of it this way: bokken weigh less than a shinken. Singlesticks weight less than basket hilts. Lighter training weapon means more reps with good form. Also, means more intense bouting, and more varied actions in bouting. Modern fencing proves it can go to far, but overall, a lighter than real trainer is really useful.

Jim Bensinger
Jim Bensinger Patrick but too often it encourages technique that you absolutely cannot duplicate with a real sword (which should be dealt with in ruleset and training, I know...)-all trainers for sparring should and will be lighter than the real thing, but if you need a super special extra light trainer then summat’s amiss

Patrick Nicholas
Patrick Nicholas Jim Bensinger I'd agree: this is mostly a matter of degrees, is, light enough to work, heavy enough to be real. Another side note, a sharp original 1796 lc weights around 750 iirc, so the hema kg plus clunkers are still off the mark ;)

Jim Bensinger
Jim Bensinger Patrick my Prussian arty saber is 2lbs dead on

Patrick Nicholas
Patrick Nicholas My 16/17th cen Hungary is right about 780g, with more hilt it would likely be about 2lbs. That's where I like my sharp.

Matt Easton
Matt Easton Patrick Nicholas the numbers in the article you linked are an absolute mess.
For actual weights from originals see here:
https://www.antique-swords.co.uk/how-mu ... -pattern...
And:
https://www.antique-swords.co.uk/1864-p ... practice...
How Much Do 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry Sabres Weigh

Matt Easton
Matt Easton "Hutton is x, y, z". Come on peeps. This guy was making manuals from 1862 until 1897! Cold Steel is *for the light sabre*. His other manuals are for the military sabre. Please say "Cold Steel" rather than "Hutton".

Luka Pavlič
Luka Pavlič Matt Easton Was waiting for that. Painting all of Hutton with a Cold Steel brush gives me the heeby jeebies.

Matt Easton
Matt Easton Here is what Hutton specifically said in 1867, in his military manual 'Cavalry Swordsmanship' (he released two military manuals that year) -
„The dragoon's ought, during his of practice independent practice I mean-to be represented a weapon in weight, length, shape nearly to the real one as possible. The weapon allude to is the steel practice (those made by Wilkinson the durable). weapon objected account of its expense; matter the cost of few sword blades by the judicious use of them, efficiency of cavalry soldier materially increased to teach cleverly use sword, his main and trustworthy weapon-to make him as thoroughly good "sabreur' the physical peculiarities is to vastly increase confidence in his own powers, and consequently his personal courage.”"
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