New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby Dangermouse » 16 Jun 2011 09:12

KeithFarrell wrote: Can you offer any idea as to how much they might cost and when they might be available?


Ha ha I have kind of given up on deadlines as I now know that they can not be adhered to in the toolmaking industry :( Best I can say is this year.

Price will be below £50. Probably £45. Club rate will be cheaper still.
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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby Dangermouse » 16 Jun 2011 13:14

Here are the correct messers shown with the messer we based them on. As you can see the grip lengths are very similar.

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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby Andreas Engström » 16 Jun 2011 13:28

Dangermouse wrote:Here are the correct messers shown with the messer we based them on. As you can see the grip lengths are very similar.

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Ah, nice. With that grip length I would probably go for the long pommel, to make pommel hooking smooth.

Looking good! Now for the sabres, eh? :-)

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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby Bulot » 16 Jun 2011 15:11

Dangermouse wrote:
Bulot wrote:Too bad these don't have the very distinctive pommel shape of a messer. :?


Problem is it means tooling another part. Given the problems I have had with toomakers (I am now on my 5th!) I am really loathed to create extra parts when they are not actually "needed" (I appreciate the style of pommel is used in some techniques - but it is in the minority).

Also a new pommel would need signifigant investment that we would eventually want to get our money back on. This would lead to a more expensive product.

The idea behind the range is to keep the costs of the products down. This is why we aim to make all the parts interchangable. The messer guards or instance will fit on a single hand blade making a cheap messer substitute for those who can't afford the blade as well.

Don't get me wrong - we will do a Messer Pommel eventually (and it will be cheap) but we feel that the money is better spent on other products at the moment.


I supposed production costs were involved. That's all good, then. I'll be happy with a falchion for the time being ;)
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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby craftyfighter » 16 Jun 2011 19:01

Bulot wrote:I supposed production costs were involved. That's all good, then. I'll be happy with a falchion for the time being ;)


y'know...if you take one of the knightshop's "scent stopper" pommels+a little black Milliput+and spend a little time with a grinder=a messer pommel more to your liking.
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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby Bulot » 16 Jun 2011 19:08

Of course. I could also manufacture a pommmel out of wood. But the point of buying a kit is not having to do that myself. :)
Seriously, I prefer having a cheap and quickly available nylon messer looking like the one on the pictures, than waiting and paying much more, just because I prefer the traditional messer pommel. There is a definite lack of good and cheap messer simulator out there, and I really hope Bryan and the KS guys will come up with something as good as what they did for the longsword.
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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby craftyfighter » 17 Jun 2011 09:47

Bulot wrote:Of course. I could also manufacture a pommmel out of wood. But the point of buying a kit is not having to do that myself. :)
Seriously, I prefer having a cheap and quickly available nylon messer looking like the one on the pictures, than waiting and paying much more, just because I prefer the traditional messer pommel. There is a definite lack of good and cheap messer simulator out there, and I really hope Bryan and the KS guys will come up with something as good as what they did for the longsword.


true dat...although for my self I enjoy a little DIY sometimes :D
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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby knirirr » 17 Jun 2011 10:17

There was time for a couple of hours using of the basket-hilted swords last night, both for those who have studied back-sword before (rattan with leather hilts) and some new students with no experience of it.

The new students thought the swords to be very good indeed and enjoyed the class. The experienced students thought much the same, although there were a few comments. For example, a couple thought the balance was a bit too far forward, but they did not consider this an insurmountable problem. The nylon sword was generally thought to be much better than the cudgels due to having a defined edge, the presence of which was no small improvement unto the training. We were able to use the same sort of protection we normally do; fencing mask, jacket and not a lot else.

I note that the length was a bit too much for some; being 6'3" they're about right for me, but for the 5' members I think that a bit of work with a hack-saw is in order.
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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby Reinier » 17 Jun 2011 10:50

Phil C wrote:Messers are the only Medieval weapon that intrigue me enough to dabble in early styles- maybe if I called it a "hanger", "cutlass" or even "big bowie" (some had 24" blades according to accounts) I could justify getting a pair :)


If you need to call them something else to justify buying two messers, you really do need a to get a pair. :lol: :twisted:





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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby admin » 17 Jun 2011 18:59

Regarding the balance, I don't see why the Knightshop couldn't do the pommel optionally in steel, as with the longsword pommels. As a make-do alternative you could put some steel washers under the pommel or some lead sheet slivers under the rubber grip (alongside the tang).

My general view on the nylons is that they do require more protection than singlesticks or shinai because they hit harder. You might not notice this at first because the students tend to naturally go lighter with them at first, but over time they seem to start striking harder again, and then you find you need better forearm/elbow protection and gloves (though maybe not the latter with the baskethilts).
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New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby knirirr » 17 Jun 2011 19:39

admin wrote:Regarding the balance, I don't see why the Knightshop couldn't do the pommel optionally in steel, as with the longsword pommels. As a make-do alternative you could put some steel washers under the pommel or some lead sheet slivers under the rubber grip (alongside the tang).

My general view on the nylons is that they do require more protection than singlesticks or shinai because they hit harder. You might not notice this at first because the students tend to naturally go lighter with them at first, but over time they seem to start striking harder again, and then you find you need better forearm/elbow protection and gloves (though maybe not the latter with the baskethilts).


There's not enough space to add washers, so a steel pommel would be good.
My thoughts on the striking force are along the same lines as yours. Luckily, most of us have protection - Eskrima arm guards and gloves (the latter for the off hand). We can start using these as the need arises.
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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby Dangermouse » 19 Jun 2011 14:30

Andreas Engström wrote:Looking good! Now for the sabres, eh? :-)

-Andreas


Like this one? :D

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Was fantastic to get all that feedback at Dijon. Many sabre users (Matt and Magnus springing to mind) felt that although the dimensions of our prototype sabre hilt exactly followed that of an original, it would be too small to accommodate a bulky (lacrosse) glove with the thumb vertically aligned along the grip). Thus began the nightmare of extending the grip of the hilt you see above. We will have to mould this hilt in 3 seperate parts to make it work but I think the finished product is well worth it. :D

PS we jigged a standard Xtreme blade after moulding to get a nice curve on it to match the original sabre we worked from.
Last edited by Dangermouse on 19 Jun 2011 14:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby Dangermouse » 19 Jun 2011 14:34

admin wrote: I don't see why the Knightshop couldn't do the pommel optionally in steel, as with the longsword pommels.


Neither do I :D Will look into this but will be a good couple on months before we get anywhere with it - we have so many projects on the go at the moment
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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby Colin F. » 19 Jun 2011 14:37

:D

Let me guess... No date for release as yet, maybe later this year? Like the messer?
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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby Dangermouse » 20 Jun 2011 08:45

Colin F. wrote::D

Let me guess... No date for release as yet, maybe later this year? Like the messer?


Ha ha you would probably get a more accurate result from reading tea leaves than you will from the toolmakers I work with. :lol: 2011 is the best I can say.
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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby Cutlery Penguin » 27 Jun 2011 23:06

First proper session with the new swords tonight and the general impression was very good. They have a few downsides compred to shinai, but the positive aspects outweigh them considerably.

The most obvious things were that edge alignment improved massively and when sparring people were a little more wary and tended to get less doubles.

I'll keep reporting back as we use them more.

Bryan, I know it is a thankless task developing new products, so from the EMAA, thanks!
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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby KeithFarrell » 27 Jun 2011 23:25

Cutlery Penguin wrote:Bryan, I know it is a thankless task developing new products, so from the EMAA, thanks!


Motion seconded. We are still back in the stone age, using grey-bladed nylons from one of your first batches, but even so they are still superior to wooden dowels or shinai or any of the other basic simulators I have found thusfar. On behalf of the Academy of Historical Arts, thank you for your efforts, and I look forward to seeing what other toys you develop with which to tempt us!
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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby The Salmon Lord » 22 Jul 2011 12:38

Dangermouse wrote:
Andreas Engström wrote:Looking good! Now for the sabres, eh? :-)

-Andreas


Like this one? :D

Image

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Was fantastic to get all that feedback at Dijon. Many sabre users (Matt and Magnus springing to mind) felt that although the dimensions of our prototype sabre hilt exactly followed that of an original, it would be too small to accommodate a bulky (lacrosse) glove with the thumb vertically aligned along the grip). Thus began the nightmare of extending the grip of the hilt you see above. We will have to mould this hilt in 3 seperate parts to make it work but I think the finished product is well worth it. :D

PS we jigged a standard Xtreme blade after moulding to get a nice curve on it to match the original sabre we worked from.


I've never encountered a sabruer who used a lacross glove. A decent shell and a heavy fencing glove is all we use.
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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby admin » 22 Jul 2011 13:33

Personally I only use a leather glove with the basket-hilted nylons, because the hilts cover the hand so well. I certainly wouldn't prevent my students from wearing more protective gloves if they want to though, and would certainly not recommend people use steel sabres with only leather gloves. The Victorians wore big padded gloves for sabre fencing and I have no reason to believe that our hands are more robust than theirs.

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Re: New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

Postby The Salmon Lord » 27 Jul 2011 12:18

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