New Knight Shop Sparring Swords

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Postby Nikos » 06 Aug 2009 10:15

Bryan, I have PMed you about the possibility of going up to Leeds.
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Postby admin » 06 Aug 2009 11:39

With all due respect, I have a slight concern here. Nick and Michael want a waster for beginners to use until they can afford steel. AHF do not want these for sparring, by their own admission.

Schola, Boar's Tooth and most of the rest of us are looking for something that we can spar with safely and realistically, and secondarily also use for drilling if steel is not available. We are primarily looking for a better sparring tool, AHF are not.

That difference in emphasis is very important and would favour slightly different products. Michael said he liked the thicker blades because they felt more like a steel sword in heft, but some of us disliked the thicker blades because there would be no safety increase in sparring with them over a wooden sword, possibly a steel sword and certainly over a shinai. Indeed, most of us prefer the Pentti swords, which are light and much more flexible, like a feder (and hence safer for realistic swordplay).

I'm not criticising any approach, but just pointing out that we are not all after exactly the same thing here.
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Postby Nikos » 06 Aug 2009 11:57

Hey Matt, thats not what we have said. Mike preferred the thicker blades because of the feel and balance being better, if you look back, he has also said that focus on an accurate feel and safe thrust must come before durability, as others agreed on.

We have no interest whatsoever in something to use for drilling, we never have, everything we use in the club must be suitable for both drilling and proper sparring. Yes we will indeed replace our shinai with them, and those stand as our beginner tools, but the nylons are infinately better and will therefore play a much larger role. I have said that the nylons will not replace our steels, not that we only want them as a beginner tool.

If I go up to Leeds, as I have already said to Bryan, I want to be testing them for full on sparring, as well as some drills. I thought it was quite clear when we discussed this as Fightcamp that what we wanted and want the general masses wanted was exactly the same. Look back at what I put up about my thoughts towards them, I don't see that our approach to these was very different, and yes, we wanted a product pretty much like the Penttis that Magnus had.
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Postby admin » 06 Aug 2009 12:00

Ah, okay.
Perfect then. :)
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Postby Nikos » 06 Aug 2009 12:06

Yeh, that was what I thought was so good when we discussed it at Fightcamp, that everyone seemed to be saying the same things. I definately see a lot of potential for these, as well as the obvious ones, they will allow us to train easily in public places, people to move to new weapons cheaply, and to cross train in weapons that currently can't be done. Such as messer against longsword, aluminium gets chewed against steel, for example.

The other great thing I see with these is if they become as widespread as I hope, yes we will still use steel, and yes I am sure some will still use shinai, but if pretty much everyone has these, then cross training between clubs at events will be made much easier. Also, they have already said they are organising a southern session also, so I think plenty of us should be able to get in there and give them a thorough go.
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Postby David Rawlings » 07 Aug 2009 10:31

Nikos wrote:Yeh, that was what I thought was so good when we discussed it at Fightcamp, that everyone seemed to be saying the same things. I.


Agreed, I think that's the benefit of us meeting at the same time like that.
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Postby Nikos » 07 Aug 2009 10:45

Indeed. I do appreciate that if I go to there Leeds session then we won't all be together again, but thats sort of unavoidable, for me going to Leeds and getting to the centre of London, which is I am guessing going to be the other testing ground, is about the same. It so happens that I have that day free. I don't see it as a big problem though, we had that discussion together and are all aiming for the same thing, if I do go then I will post in thorough detail on here my findings for some further discussion and we can compare notes to the southern session.

On another related note. How do you think the messers will work out? The old ones were very stiff, and therefore no safer in the thrust than the aluminiums, which has always been a difficulty for sparring. Currently though is no messer of any material type that I am totally happy with for serious sparring.
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Postby Nikos » 09 Aug 2009 20:19

Any news on whether this is going ahead at Leeds? I have PMed but not got a response yet.
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Postby Dangermouse » 11 Aug 2009 18:54

Nikos wrote:Any news on whether this is going ahead at Leeds? I have PMed but not got a response yet.


Sorry about that. PM has been sent now.

I have been chatting to Dave and we have decided to have the first session in London- Leeds will then follow. I hope we haven't upset anybody's plans too much.

Just made more sense to have the main session first where the majority of you are :D

Dave will be in contact shortly
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Postby admin » 11 Aug 2009 19:01

Incidentally, Toby was seeing if we could use a space at the Wallace Collection, but I assume he hasn't heard one way or the other yet.
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Postby Dangermouse » 11 Aug 2009 19:02

Nikos wrote:On another related note. How do you think the messers will work out? The old ones were very stiff, and therefore no safer in the thrust than the aluminiums, which has always been a difficulty for sparring. Currently though is no messer of any material type that I am totally happy with for serious sparring.


Ah, this takes me back to the "What is the role of the modern waster" thread.

Initially we were working on something to take the place of a waster. Now that we have the new remit of "Sparring Sword" things have changed in many ways.

It shouldn't be too hard to make some nylon sparring messers to play with. However, due to the limited market potential they will not be due for mass production in the near future.

I'll get some prototypes knocked up and you can see what you think. :D
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Postby TheDude » 11 Aug 2009 20:38

Thats a shame because we would order between 12-20 nylon messers right away :-)
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Postby Nikos » 11 Aug 2009 21:33

No worries, I hadn't made any plans, its in many ways better anyway, our club bbq is on the evening of the day you originally suggested, so it would have been a bit of a rush!

I shall keep an eye out for these new dates and do what we can, will the London session be on a weekend also?

I would definately be keen to see what you can do with a sparring messer based on the developments seen on the longsword range. We are indeed after something good for messer sparring rather desperately.
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Postby Dangermouse » 11 Aug 2009 21:41

TheDude wrote:Thats a shame because we would order between 12-20 nylon messers right away :-)


Leave it with me and we may be able to work something out shortly... I'll see if we can get some sent down to the London test :D
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Postby nate » 12 Aug 2009 09:53

Got to spar with the newest prototypes last night, I think they are everything people asked for at fight camp.
They have a nice amount of flex in the tip but not so much as to make them whippy and are solid in the forte so they block really well. They are in my opinion a better pentti.
I think everyone will be most pleased with them.
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Postby admin » 12 Aug 2009 09:59

Sounds awesome. 8)
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Postby Nikos » 12 Aug 2009 10:05

admin wrote:Sounds awesome. 8)


What he said.
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Postby TheDude » 12 Aug 2009 10:17

Don't suppose you took any photos of them?
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Postby nate » 12 Aug 2009 11:17

no photos sorry :(

But you will get to see them soonish I guess when Dave and Bryan get the handling sessions sorted out.

If you ask Bryan really nicely and if he's got 5 mins spare in what I know are very busy 7 day weeks he could possible put up some pictures, but thats up to him. :)

I think it is worth commending Bryan and Dave for the level of input they want people to have in these simulators and future projects and the effort they are(especially Bryan) putting in to it all. Not many, if any companies do this, so well done Bryan and Dave.

I think it can only do good and really help promote Hema and finally get some standardization happening. Not what some people want I know but it will happen and it will make it better. Especially as more and more groups seem to be sparring and like the idea of tournaments.
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Postby TheDude » 12 Aug 2009 12:16

nate wrote: Especially as more and more groups seem to be sparring and like the idea of tournaments.


Which groups are not sparring? if not, why not????!!!!!!!
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