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Anonimo Bolognese (MSS Ravenna M-345/M-346) - undated

PostPosted: 22 Apr 2009 22:30
by Megalophias
Transcription and (dubious) translation, pollaxe only:

http://www.angelfire.com/planet/megalop ... llaxe.html

PostPosted: 23 Apr 2009 08:39
by Ilkka Hartikainen
Hi!

The translation is quite word-to-word, but seems fairly correct to me. There is one error, however, in the play number four:

"potrai tu in quel tempo abbandonando con le tua mano manca il pedale de l'accia tua, prender l'asta con la destra mano dal canto di l'Accia"

should be

"potrai tu in quel tempo abbandonando con le tua mano manca il pedale de l'accia tua, prender l'asta con la detta mano dal canto di l'Accia"

so that instead of being the right hand it is the said (left) hand, otherwise the technique wouldn't make much sense.

and canto probably simply refers to the side of the axehead in relation to the right hand.

The translation is also missing the two last techniques.

Yours,
Ilkka

PostPosted: 23 Apr 2009 17:04
by Megalophias
Thank you very much Ilkka, I'll fix it up.


There are two more techniques? Do you know where I could find the text by any chance?

PostPosted: 24 Apr 2009 06:33
by Ilkka Hartikainen
Hi!

You should get this: http://www.ilcerchio.it/ilcerchio/asp/d ... ibro=20157

The rest of the text however goes like this:

Ma se tu ritrovassi, et similemente il tuo nemico, col piede manco innanzi, et similemente con la medes(i)ma manca mano pur innanzi, potrai passare col tuo piede destro innanzi, mostrandogli di volergli dare d'una acciata sopra il capo, et come egli vorrà schermirsene in alcuna guisa, ubitamente raccogliendo l'Accia alquanto indietro, gli spingerai fortemente il spontone de l'Accia nel pettenecchio sopra li testicoli, o pur v(u)oi dire ne li testicoli, et dico tanto forte, che a l'indietro trabbocchi et vada in terra.

And:

Trovandoti anchora tu, et tuo nemico col manco piede innanzi, et con la medes(i)ma mano pur innanzi, tu gli potrai mostare di volerlo ferire col spontone del calcio a la faccia, et in uno momento col detto spontone ferirgli il piede.

I wrote the above out of the book I linked on top of the post, it's a great book and has a transcription of both the anonymous texts.

Yours,
Ilkka

PostPosted: 24 Apr 2009 21:40
by Megalophias
Thanks Ilkka, I'll add that one to my (very long) book list.

Re: Anon. Bolognese (pollaxe chapter) - undated

PostPosted: 23 Sep 2011 05:33
by Michael Chidester

Re: Anon. Bolognese (pollaxe chapter) - undated

PostPosted: 04 Apr 2012 21:26
by Piermarco

Re: Anon. Bolognese (pollaxe chapter) - undated

PostPosted: 04 Apr 2012 22:59
by admin
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Re: Anonimo Bolognese - undated

PostPosted: 15 May 2012 13:02
by admin
This is such a cool source.
I think that I agree with Rubboli and Cesari that it must date to earlier than Manciolino and Marozzo. I see no reason why it could not be Di Luca's own treatise - I wonder why this has not been widely accepted by others?

http://www.wiktenauer.com/wiki/L%27Arte ... -345/M-346)

http://www.wiktenauer.com/wiki/Guido_Antonio_di_Luca

Re: Anonimo Bolognese (MSS Ravenna M-345/M-346) - undated

PostPosted: 15 May 2012 16:16
by Michael Chidester
Part of the problem is that we don't have much reason to ascribe the book to him, or much proof that he ever wrote a book himself. Plus, bibliographies that do ascribe a book to him make it Opera lo Schermo, not l'Arte della Spada. And some people date it as late as 1550, well out of di Lucca's time.

Or so I've been told.

Re: Anonimo Bolognese (MSS Ravenna M-345/M-346) - undated

PostPosted: 15 May 2012 16:47
by admin
Given the weapons covered in it and the sort of techniques, a date later than Marozzo/Manciolino just doesn't make sense to me. Even the language seems earlier somehow.

Re: Anonimo Bolognese (MSS Ravenna M-345/M-346) - undated

PostPosted: 15 May 2012 18:03
by Motley
I wish some one would translate this text. It just seems to be smothered in awesome. I understand that it is a mammoth undertaking for little reward though. I may be better trying to learn Italian.

Re: Anonimo Bolognese (MSS Ravenna M-345/M-346) - undated

PostPosted: 15 May 2012 18:08
by Michael Chidester
It's my understanding that this is one of the longest manuscripts in the entire HEMA corpus--several hundred pages, where most manuscript treatises are only a few dozen, with thousands of plays.

Re: Anonimo Bolognese (MSS Ravenna M-345/M-346) - undated

PostPosted: 15 May 2012 18:15
by Motley
Michael Chidester wrote:It's my understanding that this is one of the longest manuscripts in the entire HEMA corpus--several hundred pages, where most manuscript treatises are only a few dozen, with thousands of plays.


Yes that is what I understand too. I think Steve Reich once said that there were over 400 plays just for sword alone. Hence why I don't hold much hope of it ever been translated.

Re: Anonimo Bolognese (MSS Ravenna M-345/M-346) - undated

PostPosted: 15 May 2012 20:09
by Piermarco
I'm willing to listen to arguments to the contrary, but I agree with Matt on the date. Some place it to the 1550s based on the fact most of the treatise is on the single sword, whereas Manciolino and Marozzo spend most of their time on sword and buckler.

I don't see this as a self-evident reason for a later date though. A number of high-profile duels from the early 1500s that used the single sword and/or a companion weapon other than a buckler. One of the most famous was when one of De Luca's students, Count Guido Rangone of Modena, fought Ugo Pepoli in 1516 with single sword and a bronze gauntlet on the left hand, hmmm.

The single sword plays themselves seem earlier, with the full gamut of the wide guards (which tend to disappear or lose importance in Viggiani and Dalle Agocchie) and more left foot forward guards. Also if it was a later text, it seems strange that it includes armoured pollaxe, and half-swording with an armoured gauntlet, and not say sword and dagger or sword and cloak.

An analysis of the watermarks by Dr. Giuliani at the Biblioteca Classense dates the paper used to the first or “at most” the second decade of the 1500s, and I see no real reason to cast doubt on the quality of her analysis.

To be fair to Rubboli and Cesari they don't attribute the text to De Luca, they raise the possibility, somewhat in passing, it could be a draft of De Luca's treatise, since there is no real evidence that the Anonimo is by De Luca, other than the fact that if we accept the manuscript was early 1500s the dates would seem to match. De Luca's lost treatise is generally cited as printed in 1532, although De Luca is said to have died in 1514. So no real evidence, but it's tantalising to speculate.

Unless I'm mistaken “L'Arte della spada” is just the name Rubboli and Cesari made up for the otherwise untitled manuscript.

Re: Anonimo Bolognese (MSS Ravenna M-345/M-346) - undated

PostPosted: 15 May 2012 20:39
by Motley
Thanks for the info, does it have much on using a two handed sword?

Re: Anonimo Bolognese (MSS Ravenna M-345/M-346) - undated

PostPosted: 15 May 2012 21:02
by Piermarco
It has a section on the spadone, but this part seems sadly incomplete, since it starts with the ninth play of false edge against false edge (going up to the 25th play of false edge against false edge, this being all of the spadone material that is present).

I haven't particularly looked at this section but Rubboli and Cesari say it is very similar to Marozzo's third assault with the spadone.

Re: Anonimo Bolognese (MSS Ravenna M-345/M-346) - undated

PostPosted: 16 May 2012 19:19
by Michael Chidester
Very interesting stuff, Piermarco. At some point I need to buy Rubboli's book.

Re: Anonimo Bolognese (MSS Ravenna M-345/M-346) - undated

PostPosted: 16 May 2012 19:37
by Piermarco
Thanks Mike, the books from Il Cerchio always have good analysis sections, so it's well worth a look. They've just released an Italian translation of I.33 which I'm quite tempted to get, just because i'm sure it will contain a good comparative analysis of I.33 and Bolognese sword and buckler.

http://www.ilcerchio.it/manoscritto-i-3 ... ntale.html