Krumphau = Ledall's spring?

Open to public view.

Krumphau = Ledall's spring?

Postby Stevie T » 23 Sep 2008 19:17

Colin was up my way a couple of weeks back and we went through some of my interpretations of Ledall's stuff.

One of the plays we looked at was Ledall's spring and Colin noted a certain similarity with the Liechtenhauer Krumphaus so I thought I'd go through my interpretation and see what others thought.

Ledall does the spring to both the left and right and each is slightly different. He also has a short spring which I will cover at the end.

A "spring" to the right.

Starting with the left foot forward. Place the left foot in front of the right (not always necessary) and leap out to your opponents left side with a full right pass. As you make this leap out to your opponents side turn your body so that it always faces your opponent, drag your left with you, and strike a diagonal strike from your right side downwards to your left.

This will result in you finishing with your left foot forward enabling to strike to the other side in the timing of the hand, if he is close to you or step in and make a second attack from the right if he retreats, and if he presses in on you make a right strike on a left pass back.


A "spring" to the left.

Starting with the right foot forward. Leap out to your opponents right side, turning your body to face him as you do so, and make a diagonal strike from your left with the sword held in your left hand. As you make this leap sweep your right foot behind you so that you finish with your left foot leading.

If he is within distance strike again from your left side in the timing of the hand, if he retreats strike from the right on a right pass, if he presses in make a right diagonal strike while passing back with the left leg.

A short spring is essentially the same however it should take you further to your side and not as far forward, this can be espeacially usefull if he is rushing in.

So how does that conform with the Krumphau or Doebringer's Arc?
User avatar
Stevie T
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 6639
Joined: 21 Dec 2006 11:55
Location: Darlington

Postby Jose SP » 23 Sep 2008 19:51

When you strike, do you cross your hands?
Because that's quite essential for a krumphau, done from your right to your left.
Also I think we need to know:
What do you strike; his head, hands etc. And when do you strike? as an initial attack, as a defence, against which guard and so on. You said that a short spring is good if the opponent is rushing in, that could be a good situation for a krumphau, if you are unsure on how he's attacking.
KHFS Sweden
User avatar
Jose SP
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 538
Joined: 09 Nov 2007 01:16

Postby Stevie T » 23 Sep 2008 19:58

As you strike you cross your wrists a litte buit they become uncrossed as your body and feet complete the turn and leap.

But that is only from the right side, as I said striking from a left spring you hold the pommel in the left giving you the extra reach need due to swinging the right foot behind you.

With the left foot placed in front of the right then spring it can be used as an initial attack, otherwise it seems to generally be encorporated into the actual fight.

No specific target area is mention, however, if you were to ever meet ledall I reckon he say to strke at what ever target is open. Saying that he does on one occasion suggest it be made at his leg, thought there are half a dozen plays where he includes springs.
User avatar
Stevie T
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 6639
Joined: 21 Dec 2006 11:55
Location: Darlington

Postby Jose SP » 23 Sep 2008 20:52

The Krumphau is (in my opinion) a specific strike that you do on specific occasions, to attack the hands or to deflect incoming attacks. If you do it from your left side to your right side, you don't cross your hands (if you don't intend to cut with your false edge), but the specific targets and situations remain the same.

I think it is sounds more like a regular Oberhau, (that is any strike from above) with a pass to the side, as to change the centerline and make it harder for the opponent to defend. So the important technique would be the movement to the side.

Or it could just be the way I'm reading your explanation :?
KHFS Sweden
User avatar
Jose SP
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 538
Joined: 09 Nov 2007 01:16

Postby Stevie T » 23 Sep 2008 21:13

Jose SP wrote:The Krumphau is (in my opinion) a specific strike that you do on specific occasions, to attack the hands or to deflect incoming attacks. If you do it from your left side to your right side, you don't cross your hands (if you don't intend to cut with your false edge), but the specific targets and situations remain the same.

I think it is sounds more like a regular Oberhau, (that is any strike from above) with a pass to the side, as to change the centerline and make it harder for the opponent to defend. So the important technique would be the movement to the side.

Or it could just be the way I'm reading your explanation :?


The strike from the side is definately the key part of this spring, literally striking 90 degrees from where you orginally start out. Not so much of a pass as a leap.

Relooking at Toblers book it's the footwork from the spring that would have the similarity, the crossed wrists and "setting asside" would certainly have more in common with Ledall's "proffer and a rake". I would certainly suggest Ringecks words would require more than a step to the side like Tobler depicts.

So similarities and tie ins between the two but no direct link.
User avatar
Stevie T
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 6639
Joined: 21 Dec 2006 11:55
Location: Darlington

Postby Jose SP » 23 Sep 2008 23:00

The Krumphau to the hands indeed asks for a diagonal leap, or you'll not be safe enough from the opponents sword. But in the Krumphau you hold your sword in an angle so the points point to another direction than your body, with crossed hands. So I don't really see so much likeness in that and a strike that ends with your sword in front of you, more than somewhat similar footwork.

Although I'm just reading what you've written, I don't really know anything about Ledall.
KHFS Sweden
User avatar
Jose SP
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 538
Joined: 09 Nov 2007 01:16

Postby Stevie T » 23 Sep 2008 23:36

Jose SP wrote:I don't really know anything about Ledall.


Not many people do. :wink:
User avatar
Stevie T
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 6639
Joined: 21 Dec 2006 11:55
Location: Darlington

Postby Stevie T » 24 Sep 2008 15:00

I'm not really trying to say that these are exactly the same thing, I'm just interested in making links between Ledall and other Medieval European martial arts.

There are a few things that fit with Fiore, not least Ledall's Rabbet which is almost exactly the same as the Rebat, except without such prosciptive usage.

Anyone got any other interpretations about the Krumphau?

I know there was a period of discussion about this on here and there appears to be atleast two different camps of thought.
User avatar
Stevie T
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 6639
Joined: 21 Dec 2006 11:55
Location: Darlington

Postby Matclarke » 24 Sep 2008 15:05

Not sure about the move you mentioned, but when I did a Paul Wagner English longsword seminar a few years ago, there were moves that had similar elements as the Krumphau.
Matclarke
Colonel
 
Posts: 1460
Joined: 21 Jul 2006 17:51

Postby Stevie T » 24 Sep 2008 15:09

Matclarke wrote:Not sure about the move you mentioned, but when I did a Paul Wagner English longsword seminar a few years ago, there were moves that had similar elements as the Krumphau.


I've only seen a limited amount of Paul's free play which probably isn't the best thing to judge from, still I'm not sure he's cracked it properly, he seems to miss some of ledall's key concepts about how to use the sword.

Perhaps once he's published his book I'll try and make contact and discuss stuff with him.
User avatar
Stevie T
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 6639
Joined: 21 Dec 2006 11:55
Location: Darlington


Return to Johannes Liechtenauer Lineage

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron