Unterhalten - how would you interpret it?

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Unterhalten - how would you interpret it?

Postby Martin Wallgren » 29 Aug 2008 14:21

In the Liechtenauer system there is a concept named Unterhalten or simillar spelling. It is often roughly interpreted as groundfighting in general.

What I wanna know is from what words the name of this derrives. Unter is quite clear as Under, below, nether. But what is halten?

//Martin
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Postby Fab » 29 Aug 2008 14:49

'Halten' is 'hold'.

But in modern German, unterhalten means 'entertain'.
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 29 Aug 2008 17:03

Fab wrote:But in modern German, unterhalten means 'entertain'.

Aaah. Yes. That is one meaning.

Actually, "Unterhalten" in its medieval (and combative) context means: holding down.

There are a couple of sections, notably that of Martin Huntfelt in the manuscript 44 A 8 (Peter von Danzig) that deals entirely with "Unterhalten und Aufstehen", that is how you should hold the opponent down, or getting up again if somebody holds you down.

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Postby Fab » 29 Aug 2008 17:31

That's why I quoted that current meaning :)

The Medieval/MA one being rather obvious once you addd both parts.


For it is actually entertaining.
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 29 Aug 2008 17:56

Fab wrote:For it is actually entertaining.

True, true, my friend.
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Postby Axel » 29 Aug 2008 18:10

in modern Swedish "underhållning" means entertainment as well, "under holding"-ish.

Do you think it refers to groundfighting mostly being used in friendly sport wrestling? 8) .
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Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 29 Aug 2008 18:38

Axel wrote:in modern Swedish "underhållning" means entertainment as well, "under holding"-ish.

Do you think it refers to groundfighting mostly being used in friendly sport wrestling? 8) .

Hmm, yes and no.
Hundtfeltz (in the von Danzig ms Dierk mentioned) explains it in a section about armoured combat . So it deals with situations to bring your opponent to the ground and immobilize him there, but I don't think it's "sportive" at all. Nearly all the sequence end with some nasty dagger-stabbing. Only at the end it's about getting him to surrender. I guess we shouldn't forget that the ms is still oriented on a knightly duel situation, very often very nasty and lethal things but still sometimes the possibiity to surrender and get out the barriers alive....
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Postby Axel » 29 Aug 2008 18:42

thanks for the info Wolfgang!

Im not coming across well enough I think, I was not being very serious with my comment :).
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Postby Fab » 29 Aug 2008 18:43

Axel wrote:thanks for the info Wolfgang!

Im not coming across well enough I think, I was not being very serious with my comment :).


That's just because Germans have no humour, mate.
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 29 Aug 2008 18:52

Fab wrote:That's just because Germans have no humour, mate.

That explains a lot.

Finally I understand.

Thank you so much.

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Last edited by Dierk Hagedorn on 29 Aug 2008 19:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Axel » 29 Aug 2008 18:57

I think we Swedes still sometimes consider ourselves the poor cousin from the countryside in relation to our German relatives, you have all the culture, we have a muppet chef and a non existent bikini team.
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Postby Fab » 29 Aug 2008 19:41

Dierk Hagedorn wrote:That explains a lot.

Finally I understand.

Thank you so much.

Dierk


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Postby Claus Sørensen » 29 Aug 2008 20:49

I think we Swedes still sometimes consider ourselves the poor cousin from the countryside in relation to our German relatives, you have all the culture, we have a muppet chef and a non existent bikini team.


:D

- C _

btw. I agree with Dierk totally on the "unterhalten" subject!
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 29 Aug 2008 20:55

Claus Sørensen wrote:btw. I agree with Dierk totally on the "unterhalten" subject!

Of course you do.

Bis gleich
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Postby Martin Wallgren » 30 Aug 2008 08:37

Dierk Hagedorn wrote: holding down.

There are a couple of sections, notably that of Martin Huntfelt in the manuscript 44 A 8 (Peter von Danzig) that deals entirely with "Unterhalten und Aufstehen", that is how you should hold the opponent down, or getting up again if somebody holds you down.



That is most intriguing. Would it be possible for you to give me one or two ov those passages on aufstehen? As a teaser on your book I defenetly will by.

Many thanx, Martin
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 30 Aug 2008 14:05

Martin Wallgren wrote:That is most intriguing. Would it be possible for you to give me one or two ov those passages on aufstehen? As a teaser on your book I defenetly will by.

Excellent.

44 A 8 (Peter von Danzig)
The Huntfelt part from our website (a version that due to revisions I made for the printed book might have changed – according mostly the translation, of course).
Unterhalten und Aufstehen

Jude Lew
Here's another one.
Unterhalten und Aufstehen

All the best
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Postby Martin Wallgren » 31 Aug 2008 00:04

Thanx man!
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Postby David Welch » 05 Sep 2008 02:26

I always seem to think of it in terms more along the lines of "Police Control and Restraint Techniques".
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Re: Unterhalten - how would you interpret it?

Postby philippe willaume » 17 Sep 2008 18:15

Martin Wallgren wrote:In the Liechtenauer system there is a concept named Unterhalten or simillar spelling. It is often roughly interpreted as groundfighting in general.

What I wanna know is from what words the name of this derrives. Unter is quite clear as Under, below, nether. But what is halten?

//Martin

Hello martin
An easy way is to do the following association
unterhalten= holding under=pin
auf sten= to stand up

in ringeck there is 3 unterhalten
The first one is Ije Jime followed by a pin via arm locks keeping on hand free to stab him in peace

The second (it is in hundtfeltz as well) you deck him knelling his right elbow and controlling the head via the left arm at the throat and getting his left hand with your right into you left hand then stab him in peace.

The 3rd (in hundtfeltz as well) involve kneeling on his gonads, after or as you deck him. I am not too sure how the hell it is done. But the idea is to get on hand free to stab him in piece.
but i think it is related to TOMOE-HISHIGI
(http://judoinfo.com/kubiwaza.htm)



Hundtfeltz
Has mores unter halten but in VD the hundtfeltz passage states clearly that the section is for wrestling in armour. (the unterlaten in Ringeck bit are in the naked fencing part)

There is several pin described but they are variations on the same theme. (look at codex gladiatoria to get an idea what it looks like)
The idea is to get him to make him fall on your right.
As you fall you get one leg in bettwen his and you land half on him

With you body you will control his right arm
In on variation you have his between you thigh and calve as you literally sit)

With you left arm you will control his throat (hence his head) and you do the passing his other hand job and then stab him at leisure.

You can lay on right arm holding it with you legs and do the head other hand mocking about.

You can hold his head under you arm and lay on top of his head.

If he lands on his belly, you sit on him, put you knee one thneck and pull his visor up and gouge him.

And so on

In hundtfeltz the auf ston are not described explicitly, he just says and the end of the technique so kumpstu auff. That being said the title clearly mention auf sten

The auf sten for when you are lying on your belly and he pull on your visor, consist on batting his hand with the same hand, turtle up and shake him off.

The rest tomorrow as need to go to eat or my wife will kill me
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