One-handed meisterhau

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One-handed meisterhau

Postby Eric Gerry » 14 Aug 2008 02:52

Hi all,

I'm hoping those who've studied the messer a bit can help me with this. I'm trying to apply Leichtenauer teachings to an arming sword, and while that's mostly straight forward, I'm unsure of how to deliver the zwerch and schiel with any kind of power (this came up while interpreting Lignitzer's mittlehau play which features a zwerch). I haven't gotten to study messer in depth yet, though IIRC the Leckuchner material features sinlge-handed versions of these longsword strikes; is there anything in there on the specifics of their executions?


Cheers,

Eric Gerry
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Postby Herbert » 14 Aug 2008 08:08

You will notice that you lack leverage for a one handed Schielhau. If done at the right moment and right angle it will work though.

The Zwerchhau is rather simple with the one handed sword. It works really well and it is also prominently featured in the long knife (langes Messer) of Lecküchner.

The important part is to put your thumb on the flat of the blade when doing the Zwerchhau. Of course underneath the blade. Also use good footwork, step or rather jump right or left with the Zwerchhau.

Personally I see no problem there.

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Postby Colin F. » 14 Aug 2008 08:50

hi eric, i'm having a bit of a play with lignitzer at the moment too.

As Herbert says the zwerch should be done with the thumb on the flat so you can rotate your sword more easily.

The play you mention there too, it asks for two quick zwerches, from what I understand, the first from your right then from your left. I seem to find that most of the time, just due to the rotation really, that the one I deliver second has far more power in it than the first one.

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Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 14 Aug 2008 10:05

As being said before, Schielhau is a bit tricky.
But you have clear mentions of the hidden strikes in Lecküchners Messer (see also the Hans von speyer manuscript);
Zornhau and Zwerch are explicitly mentioned in Lignitzer's sword & buckler. Therefore it's as always: a question o training.

It seems for me that the hidden strikes with one-handed-weapons are a bit less single-time-counters than with the longsword.
From my very little knowledge of Lecküchners Messer I think that especially the Entruesthau (Messer equivalent to the Zwerchhau in longsword) is used more often to prepare a grappling technique by rushing into the opponent, than to simply defend and kill/wound within the same moment.

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Postby Paul B » 14 Aug 2008 12:14

somthing I have seen a few people doing is putting an exagerated motion with the elbow into the arm movement. This in turn requires more movement with the feet, hips and torso.
Playing around with this a little bit, I have found that it adds significant power to the cut
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Re: One-handed meisterhau

Postby Carletto » 22 Aug 2008 12:46

Eric Gerry wrote:Hi all,

I'm hoping those who've studied the messer a bit can help me with this. I'm trying to apply Leichtenauer teachings to an arming sword, and while that's mostly straight forward, I'm unsure of how to deliver the zwerch and schiel with any kind of power (this came up while interpreting Lignitzer's mittlehau play which features a zwerch). I haven't gotten to study messer in depth yet, though IIRC the Leckuchner material features sinlge-handed versions of these longsword strikes; is there anything in there on the specifics of their executions?


Cheers,

Eric Gerry


Art Des Armes guys of Paris do that sort of adaptaion.
I fenced with Gaetan Marain, who used the spada da lato according to Leichtenauer' principles.
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