New fencing video

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Postby bigdummy » 20 Jul 2008 16:50

AdamR wrote:Hi BD
Meyer - I thought so - the cut through 3 guards comes across - our way is more a strike to a longpoint variation and work from there - there's a key difference.

Strike to mutual consent bind - yes - indeed, sometimes it is so - and nothing wrong with that IMHO - indeed - it is Meyer who presents it as a method of entering the bind.


Actually I think ti is a problem, a major blind-spot in fact, but no worse than several blind-spots we have in how we fence. Part of the value of forums like this is that small fencing groups around the world can compare notes and (hopefully) see what they are missing. Perhaps that is a subject best discussed in another thread.

Are there any videos online of your group fencing?

BD
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Postby bigdummy » 20 Jul 2008 16:56

Paul B wrote:
bigdummy wrote:.... and more importantly I don't think we have done nearly enough winding drill. We have been trying to concentrate on basics for a long time, but maybe if we have the basics somewhat down now it's time to practice winding more and really learn it. I am planning to do some work on that this weekend.

BD


This one has worked wonders for us:
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB2/vi ... php?t=8479

Its basicaly just the sticky sword dril that most people do, but with quite a few options added to train different things.

2 hours solid should get you to variant 3. Then go back to 1, and work up again. I have done this with steel and shinai (up to variant 5) but not with padded wasters or nylon, so you may get different results.
if you find ways to make it better, or just think it sucks, let me know.

If noting else, its a good warmup :)


Thanks Paul, that is a good common sense approach, we have done similar drills but I like the way yours progresses logically.

Up to now we haven't concentrated our training much on winding, because of a theory I have. I believe winding and grappling is about 10% of the fight even though it can be maybe 60-80% of what you read in the manuals. I think this is because it's the most complex and hardest to explain part - and perhaps in some respects the most interesting. I'd liken it to groundfighting in MMA. It is something you have to know, but many if not most fights will take place (particularly in a group environment!) where there would be no groundfighting at all.

I wanted us to have a fairly solid grasp of fighting in the onset and entering krieg before we advanced deeply into grappling and winding, I think we are ready to plunge into winding now, though I'm still not sure about the grappling yet for a variety of reasons.

BD
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Postby AdamR » 27 Jul 2008 11:25

bigdummy wrote:
Are there any videos online of your group fencing?



I'm afraid not. Why? Because I am so very critical of the way I and my group fences. When I feel our fencing is showing the way we want to fence, I'll be keen to post some! The principal problems I have are:

a) Just not good enough at what we do yet - too many flawed practices leading to improper situations - many because of b)...

b) Simulators that just don't allow you to fight 'right' - we had some great steel fedeschwert which were pretty rigid until the last 8" or so - you could free fence with those. We now have Hanwei federschwert and they are too flexible - so you can do some things - but working on the bind becomes too unrealistic. Shinai bounce too much - I don't use modified ones (aside from quillons) because I just don't think they are worth the effort (only my opinion). We are going to try fencing with rebated steel more - that might lead to videos. I'd like a go with some of the 'boffers' on the market too - looks like you could try some things with them that you couldn't with other simulators.

c) Have just never got around to it - we keep meaning to use more video - just for our own reference, let alone to publish for a wider audience - but getting everything and everybody in one place at on time has eluded us! Poor really - 4/10, could do better!
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Postby Stevie T » 27 Jul 2008 12:56

AdamR wrote:b) Simulators that just don't allow you to fight 'right' - we had some great steel fedeschwert which were pretty rigid until the last 8" or so - you could free fence with those. We now have Hanwei federschwert and they are too flexible - so you can do some things - but working on the bind becomes too unrealistic. Shinai bounce too much - I don't use modified ones (aside from quillons) because I just don't think they are worth the effort (only my opinion). We are going to try fencing with rebated steel more - that might lead to videos. I'd like a go with some of the 'boffers' on the market too - looks like you could try some things with them that you couldn't with other simulators.


IMO rebated steel has as many falsehoods as other simulators.

Looking at some of the damage on orginal blades, and from the experiences of older members of my re-enactment group, edge damage will prevent and interfer with how feasable some techniques are.

As the edge of the blade takes damage, whether you edge -edge parry or not, it roughens up and prevents/affects slide. (I think this principle was discussed in reference to the Flamberge blades of C16th, and may well come from this edge damage)

So some of your winden and stringen techniques might work one fight but not the next.

Where this really doesn't happen with the thicker edged rebated blades.
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Postby AdamR » 27 Jul 2008 22:58

I absolutely agree that rebated steel will also have it's shortcomings. As I said earlier, every simulator does. Although I'm not sure how moved I am by the argument of nocked edges, there are plenty of examples of swords without nocks - especially those from the Casillion 'crate' river find which reminds us that they would start off free from burrs and in a typically short (probably? Maybee? :? ) blossefechten, may well effectively remain so. But yes - all simulators are false and, as I said before, the important thing is to recognise the falseness and try and see the effect that has on your fencing. Rebated steel has the advatage of good rigidity of the blade in a bind. A curved rebate (reather than square section) also keeps the sliding contact small - although square section might (if not looked after adequately) give you the nocked sensations of a gritty slide should you think it import. Different, yes. But far less different than wood on wood, rubber on rubber ( :shock: ), or bendy Hanwei on bendy Hanwei.

But you do fight 'with the brakes on' more - which of course the other simulators are better for.

As I have always proposed - from years ago - use them all - and recognise the flaw in what you are fighting with - and the circumstances of your fight too for that matter.
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Postby bigdummy » 28 Jul 2008 02:26

I agree with you 100% Adam about the simulators, it is the biggest problem with the industry today.

When I first came onto this forum I was trying to help establish a standard, or group of standards, for training weapons and other gear (gloves, masks etc.) specifically for HEMA, but the idea was not popular, it degenerated into proponents of the various simulators arguing with each other.

Here we use padded wasters that we make, they are pretty good for padded weapons, but have their limitations. I have ideas on how to improve them but it's too expensive and time consuming for us. I'm personally sick of making them. I would prefer to get several other types of simulators, but so far we can't afford it, I'm hoping to get some nylon swords soon and some of the cheap hanwei feders.

Maybe we could revisit the idea of trying to reach some kind of standard? I wonder if we might see more people who would be interested today compared to 18 months ago....


| do recommend putting videos up though, the feedback can be painful, but it is highly valuable ;)

BD
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Postby Stevie T » 28 Jul 2008 02:40

Is it just me, or does the proposal of agreeing upon a standardised set of equipment that is to be used within a hobby sound quite funny coming from a punk.

As it is I think there is a general concenus.

Test cutting = Sharps

Drills = rebated steel, wooden waster

uncop drills = rebated steel, wooden waster or simunlators

free play = rebated steel or simulators

sparring = simulators

simulators = weighted shinai, nylon, boffers.

There may be debate on euipment but that's probably due to there being little out there designed for HEMA type activities.
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Postby bigdummy » 28 Jul 2008 03:02

Yeah the idea is making the simulators better, the helmets better etc.

Some examples:

* better low cost featherswords as has been discussed in the main HEMA forum here recently,
fencing masks which are designed for cutting swords instead of foils et al, with a rigid cover for the back of the head and stronger side of the head protection, maybe even with visors that can come up and down.
* better gloves, light agile and thin but hard enough on the outside to protect from blows
* better pole arms and spear simulators you can actually strike and thrust with full force
* and (something I'm personally interested in) better padded wasters (what you call boffers, though I think that is a totally different beast) with for example slick hard surface flats for better winding.

People have made all of these themselves and or found small shops which will make them, usually for a high price, but if we could agree on a standard we might be able to find a larger manufacturer willing to produce something on a larger scale, which would therefore be cheaper and possibly better than what we could make ourselves.

There may be debate on euipment but that's probably due to there being little out there designed for HEMA type activities.

yeah thats what I mean Stevie.

BD
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Postby Stevie T » 28 Jul 2008 03:20

Without derailing the thread completely.

I've got a couple of designs for head protection drifting around in my brain, just need to get off my arse and find a supplier of the mesh part of a fencing mask.

But I think the main problem is that people actually like, and want, different things due to the way they train and what they're in HEMA for. Some for the MA, some for the history, some for both, and others as a way of keeping fit or making friends, or just because it's an excuse to play with swords.
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Postby bigdummy » 28 Jul 2008 03:30

Yes those are some of the dividing lines. A lot of us do it from the Martial Arts perspective, some prefer an historical "look" and abhor anything made of plastic etc., wheras others of us place a higher priority on functionality for realistic training.

There may be a happy sweet spot between the two that you could aim for, but realistically it probably splits the HEMA community in two.

Having said that, I suspect even split in two its enough buying power to make gear explicitly for HEMA, as is obviously the case since we already have the hanwei featherswords, the various chivalry bookshelf gloves and etc.

Some more standardized gear would grow HEMA which would increase the market, a win / win.

But yeah this probably belongs in another thread.

BD
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Postby J. F. McBrayer » 28 Jul 2008 19:15

bigdummy wrote:Here we use padded wasters that we make, they are pretty good for padded weapons, but have their limitations. I have ideas on how to improve them but it's too expensive and time consuming for us. I'm personally sick of making them. I would prefer to get several other types of simulators, but so far we can't afford it, I'm hoping to get some nylon swords soon and some of the cheap hanwei feders.


This belongs on another thread, but would you be willing to do a writeup of how you make your padded weapons? I think that's something that would be really useful for the general community.
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Postby Jose SP » 28 Jul 2008 21:03

bigdummy wrote:Yeah the idea is making the simulators better, the helmets better etc.

Some examples:

* better low cost featherswords as has been discussed in the main HEMA forum here recently,
fencing masks which are designed for cutting swords instead of foils et al, with a rigid cover for the back of the head and stronger side of the head protection, maybe even with visors that can come up and down.
* better gloves, light agile and thin but hard enough on the outside to protect from blows
* better pole arms and spear simulators you can actually strike and thrust with full force
* and (something I'm personally interested in) better padded wasters (what you call boffers, though I think that is a totally different beast) with for example slick hard surface flats for better winding.

People have made all of these themselves and or found small shops which will make them, usually for a high price, but if we could agree on a standard we might be able to find a larger manufacturer willing to produce something on a larger scale, which would therefore be cheaper and possibly better than what we could make ourselves.

There may be debate on euipment but that's probably due to there being little out there designed for HEMA type activities.

yeah thats what I mean Stevie.

BD


Hi BD
As you seem to be good at making "boffers", I had an idea that I can't realize. Perhaps you can.
It's simple, in theory.

Cross a nylon waster with a boffer and a feathersword.
Steel core, nylon edges. And padding in between.
My theory is that the steel would make the simulator "bounce" more like swords on inpact, the nylon would make "blade contact" better than with just padding and the padding would act as a schock absorver, if the nylon edges are thin enough.
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Postby bigdummy » 28 Jul 2008 21:51

We have been playiing with a similar idea, bottom line is it's very hard to make something like that on your own, but we could compare some notes on what we have figured out so far in terms of materials etc.. I'm going to start another thread on this and on training gear standards in the main fencing forum here.

BD
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Postby TheDude » 01 Aug 2008 09:26

Two things I would point out:

1) Distance, some of your guys, generally not BD are out of distance when attacking, hence missing an awful lot and leaving themselves open to counter attacks

2) Not following through with grappling. Yes, you both end up close or both on floor but it is indecisive. I'd encourage your guys to follow through to a sword blow, headlock, submission etc.

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Postby bigdummy » 01 Aug 2008 17:23

I agree about the distance, though that can be a tactical thing.

Not following through on grappling is intentional, due to the ground we are fighting on, we had a guy break a rib a few months ago and another guy got a torn ACL last year, so currently we are curtailing the grappling part somewhat - usually ending when somebody lands a pommel strike or a schnitt. That may change if we can get an indoor hall lined up, something we are still trying to arrange so far without success.

Do you guys use mats for grappling, throws et all or do you just do it on the open ground?

BD
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