Harnischfechten Training

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Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 04 Jul 2008 09:22

Anders Linnard wrote:Unless anyone can honestly say that training armoured fighting without armour makes you a worse fighter than not training armoured fighting at all, the question about gear is fairly silly. Of course it is preferable to have armour and train in it, but having worn armour, or train in it once in a while is probably good enough for most people. I would even suggest that just training wrestling will take you quite a long way as an armoured fighter.

/A

I wouldn't call it silly. I'm not saying - neither is Fab if I understand his post correctly - that training "only" wrestling and longsword with simulators makes one a bad fencer otr whatever. That's not the point of the discussion.
But it is a fact that you move quite differently in armour. It's pretty much the same with any type of simulator we use for training. A shinai behaves different to steel. I am NOT saying, that you can't train fencing properly, but certain aspects don't get along without training them with steel.
I really don't like that whole discussion about the pro's and con's of freeplay with shinai/blunt/federn/plastic or wooden wasters. They are pointless because each simulator has its own advantages and disadvantages. And that's exactly why I think it's misleading, if you are only using one simulator.

The same with armour. Of course I use hockey gear and other stuff to train Harnischfechten. But having done only a bit of training in armour lately - and it wasn't even ecaxtly made for me, I borrowed it from a friend for an hour - showed me how much difference there is to plastic.
Your movement is restricted (and yes, it was high quality armour and not some cheap "I-once-was-a-Beetle-fender" crap from a rennaissance fair) and it's quite more exhausting than moving around with hockey gear.

Anyway, it' not about re-inventing the wheel, but I read your post like a "who cares, it's of no importance"- maybe I'm misreading it completely - and that's rather questionable.

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Postby Anders Linnard » 04 Jul 2008 09:48

Wolfgang Ritter wrote:Anyway, it' not about re-inventing the wheel, but I read your post like a "who cares, it's of no importance"- maybe I'm misreading it completely - and that's rather questionable.



I didn't mean to suggest that using armour is silly. It is quite obvious that armour makes stuff different and anyone who has used armour knows this. However, since armour is bloody expensive, it is rather silly to discuss the flaws of not using armour in reference to people training without it. Simply put: if you have armour, use it. If you don't, train without it but try to borrow it from time to time.

/Anders
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 04 Jul 2008 11:31

#%)(#%#%#% made a new post and can't remove this one :)
Last edited by Claus Sørensen on 04 Jul 2008 11:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 04 Jul 2008 11:33

Hi Poul!

Sadly I wont be bringing my armour to fightcamp! I'll bet that the cost of bringing it with me on the airplane would be quite high. And it is too heavy to carry around easily :) And the rist of loosing it on the flight :?

But I am very intested in you guys "modern" protective gear while fighting with armoured tecniques. But It is not the huge hockey-shoulder-pads that I am interested in, but what do you guys wear to protect e.g. the armpits (I've recently taken a thrust to a armpit and it hurt like #(/#%¤(#%¤#" and I wore a leather fencing jacket with padding under my other protective gear.

How do you protect the inside of your hand, it also hurts like hell to get a thrust to that part of your body and there is a risk of breaking your fingers.

And the list goes on........ the back of you knee, the groin....................

Armoured fighting is delightfully brutal, but one must be really careful not to fight in a reenactment-way where you just "hack" at areas already protected. And funny enough the areas that you "should" attack are quite hard to protect.

Therefore I am very interested in how you guys protect the "real" targetzones of armoured fighting.

Best wishes

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Postby Anders Linnard » 04 Jul 2008 11:47

Claus Sørensen wrote:And funny enough the areas that you "should" attack are quite hard to protect.


This is why I suggested using some sort of soft tip weapon.

/Anders
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Postby Paul B » 04 Jul 2008 11:49

Anders has it right for the weapon - thats about the only solution I can think of. Other than that, triangulate triangulate triangulate
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Stevie T » 04 Jul 2008 11:58

So you need a soft, sensitive sheath for the end of your weapon? :?
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 04 Jul 2008 12:07

Yes that would answer some of the thrusting problems.

But there are actually some techniques that I simply find too dangerous for free play and that according to me only can be practiced under controlled conditions.

e.g. Striking at mortschlag and tearing your opponent down with the crossguard at the back of his knee. You simply risk tearing his tendons apart.

So some of this stuff we often practice in a "slightly" controlled way.

Best wishes

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Postby Brian Hunt » 03 Aug 2008 08:59

Quick question for those of you on a budget. Why not make most of your harness?

If you buy the helmet, a set of articulated knees and elbows, and a set of sabatons and some inexpensive spaulders (if you don't want to learn to dish and planish) the rest of a 14th century harnes is well within most peoples skill level. Most of this can be had for a good price if you are careful and shop around.

You need a way to cut some 16 gage steel. A cheap jigsaw with a metal cutting blade works fairly well for this, so does a hammer and chisel or if your really tuff, a pair of tin snips. Average cost $20 to $30 US dollars.

You will need some rivits. 16 penny nails cut to length with a hacksaw or a small pair of bolt cutters works well.

A ball pein hammer to set the rivits and to shape the steel.

A drill and drill bit.

A steel pipe to "roll" your upper arm gutter and your lower arm canons along with your upper leg and your lower leg grieve (frontal grieves only since complex curves and grieves are one of the harder pieces of armour to make).

A hunk of steel to set your rivits - you don't have to have an anvil. I have seen guys set rivits in armour using an auto body dolly for an anvil.

There are several patterns for coats of plates on the internet. A Canvas coat as opposed to leather works well and will drasticly lower the cost of your armour.

There are several places where basic instructions are listed including a free how to build armour guide floating around the net as well.

If you are on a budget, do it yourself is always the cheapest option. When you don't have a lot of cash, blood, sweat and tears have to become your medium of exchange.

Personaly, I make all of my own armour - that way all I need is steel, leather for straps, and rivits.

Just a thought.

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Postby Harry » 03 Aug 2008 12:11

well brian, the answer is easy...

first of all, not everybody is born with two gifted and amormaking hands

second, in europe we have big troubles with working space. not everybody has the opportunity to make the armor in his appartment

third, time is always an interessting matter in such things.
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Postby Brian Hunt » 04 Aug 2008 18:48

Hi Harry,

first of all, not everybody is born with two gifted and amormaking hands


That is why I suggested buying the hard stuff and making the easy. Most people have the skills to cut some steel, file the edges and roll it around a pipe with a hammer. It doesn't take much skill to hit the end of a rivit and set it either. I have taught lots and lots of folks how to do this in just a few minutes. And many have completed a coat of plates in one day using the basic tools I outlined. I promise you don't need a god given talent for amour construction to do this.

second, in europe we have big troubles with working space. not everybody has the opportunity to make the armor in his appartment


This is also a problem is large US cities. However, a portable workbench and a park, the parking lot or grassy area of your apartment, a friends garage, etc. all readily lend themselves to a quick setup and you can accomplish a great deal there. I have done so in the past when I have lived in crowded apartment complexes. Just be sure to try and do it during daylight hours and most of your neighbors won't give you a hard time, heck you may even get a new recruit or two out of it.

third, time is always an interessting matter in such things.


Time is always an issue in most things, but a couple of hours on a weekend will accomplish an amazing amount of work.

Another thing to look at, is if you have an SCA group in your area someone will frequently have a small amoury workshop setup where you could work and gain help if you are concerned about the skills to accomplish the goal of an inexpensive harness.

all the best.

Brian Hunt

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Re: Harnischfechten Training

Postby Stevie T » 10 Aug 2008 17:47

Jeffrey Hull wrote:Harnischfechten techniques from Ringeck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoDu6vrCcX8


OMG!

I just realised that Thomas is probably John's whee lad, whom I last saw when is was about 7 years old.

f*ck I'm getting old.
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