Harnischfechten Training

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Harnischfechten Training

Postby Jeffrey Hull » 02 Jul 2008 06:16

Some people would get all bent out of shape and would be disparaging because these guys are practicing armoured fighting in other than full ferrous harness.

However, I applaude their efforts.

It is a German group called (ironically) Blossfechter, demonstrating their training at Harnischfechten. They do so with safe practice weapons, in sport-fencing masks and in like motocross / hockey armour :arrow:

Harnischfechten techniques from Ringeck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoDu6vrCcX8

Some techniques from Hans Czynners treatise
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsh0aQTI ... re=related

Harnischfechten sparring demonstration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ea5-nMpJL0
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Postby Paul B » 02 Jul 2008 08:47

I like these guys. The video is very well done.

I think there will always be some who disparage people who cant afford the best swords/armour etc *cough* SFI *cough*, but for harnishfechten, we really do need a cheaper alternative.

I got a bargain at about £3500 for a St George Armoury harness, and that is clearly prohibitive for most people. Seeing as most medival combat was done in armour, I think the more groups like this, developing methods and experimenting with kit the better.

Its somthing I will be encouraging in SG6 in the long term
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 02 Jul 2008 09:37

Paul B wrote:I like these guys. The video is very well done.

I think there will always be some who disparage people who cant afford the best swords/armour etc *cough* SFI *cough*, but for harnishfechten, we really do need a cheaper alternative.

I got a bargain at about £3500 for a St George Armoury harness, and that is clearly prohibitive for most people. Seeing as most medival combat was done in armour, I think the more groups like this, developing methods and experimenting with kit the better.

Its somthing I will be encouraging in SG6 in the long term


Yes, it looks nice - haven't seen all of the videos yet, but so far the techniques seem to be done properly and accurate.
The group os located in Bavararia, half way between Ingolstadt and Regensburg. This is their homepage: http://www.blossfechter.de/

I'd love to do more Harnischfechten, but armour is so expnsive......and modern gear is a bit misleading, because plastic behaves different....

Paul, please DO NOT post any pics of your armour once you'll have it, I'll probably go green with envy....


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Re: Harnischfechten Training

Postby HuubB » 02 Jul 2008 11:45

Jeffrey Hull wrote:Some people would get all bent out of shape and would be disparaging because these guys are practicing armoured fighting in other than full ferrous harness.

However, I applaude their efforts.

It is a German group called (ironically) Blossfechter, demonstrating their training at Harnischfechten. They do so with safe practice weapons, in sport-fencing masks and in like motocross / hockey armour :arrow:

Harnischfechten techniques from Ringeck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoDu6vrCcX8

Some techniques from Hans Czynners treatise
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsh0aQTI ... re=related

Harnischfechten sparring demonstration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ea5-nMpJL0


They found a modern solution to an old problem. I like their protective equipment, especially for training situation. Though, a harness...so tempting...

Their techniques are good I must say, nice and flowing (the hans Czynner film)
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Postby Anders Linnard » 02 Jul 2008 11:56

Isn't the thing with protective gear for armoured fighting that you want padding in places where padding is sort of crap, like the armpits? I think that you could easily train half-swording cheaply by just using an instrument with a soft tip and just use your normal gear. After all, the general idea of fighting people in armour is to hit them where they have no armour :)

/A
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Postby Paul B » 02 Jul 2008 11:58

Anders Linnard wrote:Isn't the thing with protective gear for armoured fighting that you want padding in places where padding is sort of crap, like the armpits? I think that you could easily train half-swording cheaply by just using an instrument with a soft tip and just use your normal gear. After all, the general idea of fighting people in armour is to hit them where they have no armour :)

/A


Armour also resticts ones movements in important ways, the trick is probably a combination of armour and a safe weapon. A boffer might be a perfectly aceptable solution for this.
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Anders Linnard » 02 Jul 2008 14:36

Paul B wrote:
Anders Linnard wrote:Isn't the thing with protective gear for armoured fighting that you want padding in places where padding is sort of crap, like the armpits? I think that you could easily train half-swording cheaply by just using an instrument with a soft tip and just use your normal gear. After all, the general idea of fighting people in armour is to hit them where they have no armour :)

/A


Armour also resticts ones movements in important ways, the trick is probably a combination of armour and a safe weapon. A boffer might be a perfectly aceptable solution for this.


Yes, but since it is so expensive it is not always an option. And since modern protection doesn't actually hinder you in the same way either and also leaves the parts under the armpit unprotected, I see little point in it. Just using a soft tipped simulator would probably be good enough for most people and get you quite far. Add some wrestling training and you are most likely going to get quite far.

/Anders
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Postby Colin F. » 02 Jul 2008 14:37

Wolfgang Ritter wrote:Paul, please DO NOT post any pics of your armour once you'll have it, I'll probably go green with envy....


When I was round at Paul's the other day it was all I could do not to grab the nearest quarterstaff, bash him over the head and make a quick escape with it. Tis a rather nifty harness...
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Postby Paul B » 02 Jul 2008 14:44

made off with the nearest quaterstaff though :D
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Colin F. » 02 Jul 2008 16:07

Paul B wrote:made off with the nearest quaterstaff though :D


Ah yes, making a 7ft quarterstaff disappear is an impress slight of hand :D
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Postby Jeffrey Hull » 03 Jul 2008 04:46

The advantage of how those guys do their stuff with those kits is that they can go at high speed with only little fear of bad injury.

So it allows moves to be done with great force.

Of course, it would be most realistic to practice in authentic harness with steel weapons trying to actually hurt each other, but then that would no longer be training but instead a mortal duel :wink:
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Postby craftyfighter » 03 Jul 2008 09:27

Paul B wrote:I like these guys. The video is very well done.

I think there will always be some who disparage people who cant afford the best swords/armour etc *cough* SFI *cough*, but for harnishfechten, we really do need a cheaper alternative.

I got a bargain at about £3500 for a St George Armoury harness, and that is clearly prohibitive for most people. Seeing as most medival combat was done in armour, I think the more groups like this, developing methods and experimenting with kit the better.

Its somthing I will be encouraging in SG6 in the long term


Agreed...I also have been thinking this might be the ultimate goal for SG2.
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Postby craftyfighter » 03 Jul 2008 11:03

of course it won't satisfy the critics...but it would look better than ice hockey and american football kit: http://www.alchemyarmory.com/

I actually never thought I'd find a good use for this stuff.
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Postby Paul B » 03 Jul 2008 11:09

craftyfighter wrote:of course it won't satisfy the critics...but it would look better than ice hockey and american football kit: http://www.alchemyarmory.com/

I actually never thought I'd find a good use for this stuff.


oohh - looks horrible, but for £400 per harness me likey :D
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 03 Jul 2008 11:16

Hmm, it looks quite ugly, but it should suit historical fencing better than Hockey gear.
It's just the same as with ALL the various simulators we have to use: it's a different feel compared to authentic arms and armour......by the way, I don't think, that good armour replicas are expensive - it's craftmanship at its best if it's properly done, so absoliutely worth the price.....it's just that I can't afford to buy it......
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Postby craftyfighter » 03 Jul 2008 12:10

Paul B wrote:
craftyfighter wrote:of course it won't satisfy the critics...but it would look better than ice hockey and american football kit: http://www.alchemyarmory.com/

I actually never thought I'd find a good use for this stuff.


oohh - looks horrible, but for £400 per harness me likey :D


yeah it is totally crap, but it would function more appropriately ...and its dirt cheap. Good gods I feel so dirty saying nice things about this stuff :(

or for slightly more money there is this option: http://www.madmattsarmory.com/
(excluding gauntlets....that's a suit for around $1,000 american pesos)
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Postby Fab » 03 Jul 2008 13:06

..I'd be tempted to say a timid "yes but no".

I'm certainly talking out of my arse, as I don't have a harness of my own, nor have worn any so far. But according to friends of mine who specifically research Harnischfechten (namely Daniel Jaquet and Thomas Schmutziger), it's not just a matter of having protection.

Armour restricts your movements (yes, far less than what most poeple out there think, I agree) - just try to scratch your back in full harness, you can't. Or cross your arms. Or dance to "YMCA". It makes some locks/wresting moves/grabs/grappling techniques/other techniques easier to apply or to complete or to use. I think Thomas could quote several from Gladiatoria that make the most sense in armour.

And armour adds mass to you. I didn't say it made you heavier, I simply said it has an effect on your momentum.


And these two things are hard to simulate in full safety conditions; Yes, we could still use a light armour Ersatz that would be articulated like a period suit, and that would be preferable actually. But the added mass remains one of the problems : the only way to simulate it is to carry it. Which takes away all safety.

Just my two eurocents of nonsense.
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Postby Paul B » 03 Jul 2008 14:04

The answer is simple, we train with small children strapped to our backs!

Yes the point about mass is a good one, but when you have to compromise, you have to compromise...
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Fab » 03 Jul 2008 17:18

Image
No. Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise.
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Postby Anders Linnard » 04 Jul 2008 07:33

Unless anyone can honestly say that training armoured fighting without armour makes you a worse fighter than not training armoured fighting at all, the question about gear is fairly silly. Of course it is preferable to have armour and train in it, but having worn armour, or train in it once in a while is probably good enough for most people. I would even suggest that just training wrestling will take you quite a long way as an armoured fighter.

/A

Fab wrote:..I'd be tempted to say a timid "yes but no".

I'm certainly talking out of my arse, as I don't have a harness of my own, nor have worn any so far. But according to friends of mine who specifically research Harnischfechten (namely Daniel Jaquet and Thomas Schmutziger), it's not just a matter of having protection.

Armour restricts your movements (yes, far less than what most poeple out there think, I agree) - just try to scratch your back in full harness, you can't. Or cross your arms. Or dance to "YMCA". It makes some locks/wresting moves/grabs/grappling techniques/other techniques easier to apply or to complete or to use. I think Thomas could quote several from Gladiatoria that make the most sense in armour.

And armour adds mass to you. I didn't say it made you heavier, I simply said it has an effect on your momentum.


And these two things are hard to simulate in full safety conditions; Yes, we could still use a light armour Ersatz that would be articulated like a period suit, and that would be preferable actually. But the added mass remains one of the problems : the only way to simulate it is to carry it. Which takes away all safety.

Just my two eurocents of nonsense.
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