Best defense against mittlehau

Open to public view.

Postby Herbert » 21 Jun 2008 07:59

If this is the defence against a Mittelhau then you shouldn't go for the hands but beginn with a Mittelhau and lower it to a cut to the front leg. The pics of JC are not what I would consider a good defence. At least in the second pic he isn't posing any threat, his point is upwards. That is why you do a lower Absetzen or something else. Static blocks are always a last resort.

Herbert
User avatar
Herbert
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 1024
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 09:40
Location: Austria

Postby Claus Sørensen » 21 Jun 2008 09:20

Hi BD

(Removed old text, since Harry already wrote about stepping while absetzen).

That should do the trick for you.

Best wishes

Claus
Last edited by Claus Sørensen on 21 Jun 2008 12:52, edited 5 times in total.
Laurentiusgildet Århus Denmark
Hemac-member
Claus Sørensen
Sergeant-Major
 
Posts: 241
Joined: 18 May 2007 09:38
Location: Århus - Denmark

Postby Harry » 21 Jun 2008 09:34

bigdummy wrote:
Harry wrote:
Paul B wrote:Very Meyer-ish. that is the thing to remember when looking at ARMA, particularly JC. I have seen him move plenty quick in that kind of stance (youtube only though). Remember, that is how they train, so they are quite agile in the low stances. Not how I would do it, but what do I know?


well... the complete MITTELHAU is only from meyer... you won't find a mittelhau in ringecks book or thalhoffers oder peter von danzigs any other older master.


Yes but the fact is, in a fencing match one isn't limited to precisely the strikes mentioned by your preferred master, I certainly to not believe anyone actually was in period. Sometimes someone is going to strike something like a mittelhau, you damn sure can't train with the expectation that they never will if for no other reason than you don't know what your opponent will do, or even if they will fight rationally at all.

BD


maybe you are right, but never the less... if someone did a mittelhau... just use the pfug to parry it.... it is the simpliest way to protect yourself against this strike!
MC-Stats (Won/Lost/Fought/Open: 2/2/4/4)

"Take away all his weapons and than kick him in the ass" - Free Translation from the Viennese Gladiatoria
User avatar
Harry
Colonel
 
Posts: 1317
Joined: 20 Mar 2006 13:47

Postby Jose SP » 21 Jun 2008 13:03

The first picture of JC parrying, it's not a bad parry if you assume he's simultaneously winding his sword to his strong while taking a small step forward and thrusting.
KHFS Sweden
User avatar
Jose SP
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 538
Joined: 09 Nov 2007 01:16

Postby Harry » 21 Jun 2008 13:57

Jose SP wrote:The first picture of JC parrying, it's not a bad parry if you assume he's simultaneously winding his sword to his strong while taking a small step forward and thrusting.


well... then you are in the so called "Absetzen" ;)
MC-Stats (Won/Lost/Fought/Open: 2/2/4/4)

"Take away all his weapons and than kick him in the ass" - Free Translation from the Viennese Gladiatoria
User avatar
Harry
Colonel
 
Posts: 1317
Joined: 20 Mar 2006 13:47

Postby Jose SP » 21 Jun 2008 16:10

exactly.
A photo can't picture motion, so what's saying he isn't doing an absetzen?
Rethorically asked, as it could be a hard parry as well.
KHFS Sweden
User avatar
Jose SP
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 538
Joined: 09 Nov 2007 01:16

Postby Bill » 21 Jun 2008 16:14

I would bet a million dollars John is not doing a static parry.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. ukn

What hurts.....Teaches German poverb

Bill
User avatar
Bill
Captain
 
Posts: 730
Joined: 20 Nov 2007 07:24
Location: Knoxville, TN.

Postby Bill » 21 Jun 2008 16:28

Krump (false edge or short edge does not matter), wind to the outside, and strike to the head,

Krump wind point stab them in the what ever,

void just step back,

absetzen,

If they strike that low, and would not hit your leg, simply stab them in the head, by raising your hands out of the way.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. ukn

What hurts.....Teaches German poverb

Bill
User avatar
Bill
Captain
 
Posts: 730
Joined: 20 Nov 2007 07:24
Location: Knoxville, TN.

Postby Paul B » 21 Jun 2008 17:00

Bill wrote: If they strike that low, and would not hit your leg, simply stab them in the head, by raising your hands out of the way.


Oft forgotten, and worth repeating - if in doubt, get out of the way or stab them in the face.
.... or I could be completely wrong.

Paul Bennett SG6 - Bradford (Won/Lost/Played) 0/1/1
Carpentry and wooden weapons:
http://www.historicarts.co.uk
User avatar
Paul B
Got Wood
 
Posts: 3694
Joined: 30 Mar 2006 17:26
Location: Marple, cheshire

Postby bigdummy » 21 Jun 2008 17:08

The only problem with that is these strikes can come when you are in krieg and if you thrust into their face you may get your killing blow but be cut on the hand simultaneously.

Also, I'm not real fast on my feet so I may be having more problems in that area than most people, I tend to stay and fight in krieg when I get there because thats where i do best.

But I'm going to try the following today:

A) slightly lower pflug and absensten
B) stepping in with absentsen
C) stepping away with absentsen
D) lower follow-through with krumphau (ending the pivot at the waist as Harry suggests)
E) Hangen - Shrankhut which I've been using before with some success.

I'll see which one works best for me and let you know.

BD
"In the case of an ailing social order, the absence of an adequate diagnosis... is a crucial, perhaps decisive part of the disease." -Zygmunt Bauman

"With any luck we'll be in Stalingrad by winter. " - Anyonymous German soldier
User avatar
bigdummy
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 15127
Joined: 06 Mar 2007 20:32
Location: New Orleans

Re: Best defense against mittlehau

Postby Randall Pleasant » 22 Jun 2008 06:29

bigdummy wrote:Ok so Randal, and the rest of y'all, imagine if instead of striking high as is more common, someone made a middle strike aimed at the hands like this one I've done the liberty of portraying via Randals image plus a bit of crude microsoft paint editing


Notice that your edits made the arms longer than normal. In order to target the hands they would have to lean their body forward into the point. In other words, in order to target the hands one has to also impae themself upon their adversary's point. Not a safe thing to do!
Last edited by Randall Pleasant on 22 Jun 2008 06:41, edited 1 time in total.
Ran Pleasant
Randall Pleasant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 514
Joined: 05 Feb 2007 16:53
Location: Flower Mound, Texas

Postby Randall Pleasant » 22 Jun 2008 06:40

Herbert wrote:The pics of JC are not what I would consider a good defence. At least in the second pic he isn't posing any threat, his point is upwards. That is why you do a lower Absetzen or something else. Static blocks are always a last resort.


Take a little more general view of Absetzen. Don't look at it as just a parry followed by a thrust. Instead, think of Absetzen as a parry followed by an attack. I am very sure that from the position shown in the picture that JC would have followed up with either a cut or a slice.
Ran Pleasant
Randall Pleasant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 514
Joined: 05 Feb 2007 16:53
Location: Flower Mound, Texas

Postby Harry » 22 Jun 2008 11:49

yeah, but in a fluid movement, the thrust is the logical attack
MC-Stats (Won/Lost/Fought/Open: 2/2/4/4)

"Take away all his weapons and than kick him in the ass" - Free Translation from the Viennese Gladiatoria
User avatar
Harry
Colonel
 
Posts: 1317
Joined: 20 Mar 2006 13:47

Re: Best defense against mittlehau

Postby bigdummy » 22 Jun 2008 16:06

Randall Pleasant wrote:
Notice that your edits made the arms longer than normal. In order to target the hands they would have to lean their body forward into the point. In other words, in order to target the hands one has to also impae themself upon their adversary's point. Not a safe thing to do!


Ok Randal, I guess I've never sparred in my life or seen anyone do this in real life.

You do not fail to live up to expectations mate.

BD
"In the case of an ailing social order, the absence of an adequate diagnosis... is a crucial, perhaps decisive part of the disease." -Zygmunt Bauman

"With any luck we'll be in Stalingrad by winter. " - Anyonymous German soldier
User avatar
bigdummy
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 15127
Joined: 06 Mar 2007 20:32
Location: New Orleans

Re: Best defense against mittlehau

Postby Randall Pleasant » 23 Jun 2008 01:27

BD

There is nothing to get mad about here. You asked a question and I gave a clear and honest answer in a friendly manner. I'm not sure what expectations I'm suppost to be living up to but my posts on this forum are made from the view of an equal, neither looking up nor down at anyone. All the best to you and may you find the answers you need.
Ran Pleasant
Randall Pleasant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 514
Joined: 05 Feb 2007 16:53
Location: Flower Mound, Texas

Postby bigdummy » 23 Jun 2008 13:41

You are just, how can I put it, on message. I'm not mad. I'm interested in having an honest discussion between fellow fencers, not in comparing and contrasting official positions of different organizations.

For the record you can easily do that cut as depicted without having plastic-man arms, it's essentially long-point with your point aimed at the waist or knee instead of the head. I've done it and seen it done 500 times, including while fencing with some of your colleagues - if I had the patience I could go through some footage and find a dozen examples to make screenshots of, but it was easier just to modify your photo. I'm not interested in arguing about it with you, you and I can agree to disagree - or not. Other folks from other parts of the world can chime in - or not- as they see fit as the discussion continues either in this thread or the next one.. I've already got some good ideas from other folks here.

BD
"In the case of an ailing social order, the absence of an adequate diagnosis... is a crucial, perhaps decisive part of the disease." -Zygmunt Bauman

"With any luck we'll be in Stalingrad by winter. " - Anyonymous German soldier
User avatar
bigdummy
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 15127
Joined: 06 Mar 2007 20:32
Location: New Orleans

Re: Best defense against mittlehau

Postby hafoc » 08 Jul 2008 13:01

bigdummy wrote:I was looking at some footage of myself and I notice the most hits I tend to get are from mittelhau at my hands or forearms, often while in pflug or ox, frequently from quick sniping cuts and sometimes as a "mutual death", quite often when I see it coming with plenty of time... I realized I'm just unsure of the best tactic against this when it's not possible to void.

What is the best guard to transition to against a mittlehau? I know how to defeat a zorn or a zwerch thats above chest level with an oberhau or a hangen (or high Scharnkhut) or a krumph, and a low cut at the legs can usually be voided if you see it coming, but those mittlehau which are kind of aimed at your hands or the waist area in the center of your body are often too low for a hangen and too high for a void sometimes.

From a pflug you can thrust into an attacker when they try this (if you read them in time) but they may strike anyway (especially someone inexperienced) which is an unacceptable result in a real fight. A nebenhut seems to leave the hands too exposed to sniping. What has worked for me sometimes is what I think is Joachim Meyers version of a Schrankhut, or what I would think of as a sort of very low hangen, like this

Image

...but it seems to me that I'm not always in the right position to change into this guard when I want to. I was wondering if anyone recommends other techniques from within any part of the German tradition.

BD


Do not stand in an alber or pflug much. Most people tend to be weak in them.

Meet the blow with another blow rather than a "block." Meyer says that the high cut (scheitelhau) breaks all blows from above. I have had my mittlehaus broken by high cuts. Zorns will also work.
hafoc
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 213
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 01:11

Postby Brian Hunt » 03 Aug 2008 08:40

Hi BD,

If you don't like the phlug absetzen (which works great by the way), then treat it like a zwerch - drop your long edge on it and then zwerch to the other side.

Or if your are confident in your distance and footwork shift back enough to just let your opponents point go past you then quickly step in behind their strike and hit them with a nach reissen.

All the best.

Brian Hunt.

ARMA Senior Researcher

Co=author "Polearms of Paulus Hector Mair"
http://www.paulushectormair.com
Brian Hunt
Corporal
 
Posts: 30
Joined: 22 May 2007 08:00
Location: Price, Utah USA

Previous

Return to Johannes Liechtenauer Lineage

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron