A sparring clip, please feel free to comment

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A sparring clip, please feel free to comment

Postby Axel » 22 Apr 2008 14:20

I just found this sparring clip of me and Robert Molin from March this year, please post any comments or questions you might have!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETedhyXqRsk

Cheers/A
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Postby Martin Wallgren » 22 Apr 2008 15:26

as usual when watching your videos from GHFS I´m impressed with you Vinden stuff. It´s quite good. One thing though is that you have plenty of oppertunity to go in and wrestle both of you but you choose to withdraw instead several times. Is this because you always get beaten in a insulting way by Anders when you try some Ringen am Swerde?
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Postby Anders Linnard » 22 Apr 2008 15:28

It's about time we had a thread about me :)

Edit: Of course you are both excellent fencers and yadiyada.
/A
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Postby Magnus Hagelberg » 22 Apr 2008 15:30

not sure if you wanted the comment here or on the vid.

imo:
beginning of the clipp, you show energy and take initiativ, perhapps at times you focus on going about youre teckniqe more than timing it with an opening.
after about half the clipp, you slow down more, focusing more on the openings.
also, showing some tirednes.

when you go at youre opponent, you most often go in high, pressing down from above.

nice grapplings with the sword, good finishers.

tack!
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Postby Martin Wallgren » 22 Apr 2008 15:31

Well, my next thought was that I could come down and tech you how to counter those butt in the face techniques of Anders. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhhYiLyPIlg
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Postby Anders Linnard » 22 Apr 2008 15:50

My thoughts are these.

Your fencing is fantastic. I rarely see fencing as good as yours, especially on youtube. I do not agree completely with either of the previous posters, I am myself more reluctant to rush in and wrestle. It is simply a difference in focus. And regarding fencing openings, I believe that you are fenicing just right for zufechten when striking to open up the opponent and working from there. You are also displaying qualities of improvisation. All in all, very impressive.

Now don't let it go to your head.

/Anders
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 22 Apr 2008 17:53

Hello Axel!

I've got a small comment on principles! :wink:

Stand your ground if you do not intend to go forward or to the side! No good comes of running backwards! The hands tend to get cut a lot in such fencing and you seldom see regular kills from either combatants.

Your fencing looks so much better in the video when you both stand your ground !

If you are facing a person who runs backwards everytime you come against him, let him come to you and take him as he steps forward!

You will improve your technique a lot if you remember this little piece of advise.

Just my thoughts on it! Nice videos and some good sparring there also!

Best wishes

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Postby Claus Sørensen » 22 Apr 2008 17:57

I just found a quote from "Manciolino", sadly an italian manual! But it sums up some of what I was talking about in the post above!

The good player, when he plays with one who flees him, (which removes much grace from his valor, because seeing that one flee, he cannot do a perfect thing) must also himself feign to flee, because it will give spirit to the first who fled to come forward, and thus gracefully redress the miscarriage of his play.


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Postby Axel » 22 Apr 2008 20:29

Martin Wallgren wrote:as usual when watching your videos from GHFS I´m impressed with you Vinden stuff. It´s quite good. One thing though is that you have plenty of oppertunity to go in and wrestle both of you but you choose to withdraw instead several times. Is this because you always get beaten in a insulting way by Anders when you try some Ringen am Swerde?


Hi Martin, thanks for the comments! The nylon wasters don't really reward winden play, but I think we have got better nevertheless, using the feders alot have helped.

I try to always remain on me feet during sparring, going to the ground in wrestling is great fun and a good exercise, but I feelt aht working on either my ringen am schwert or abzug skills to be more important atm. Anders knack för armbars and assinfaces does not help the motivation for wrestling either! I am looking forward to be on the receiving end of some Burtonian takedowns soon!!

@Magnus,

I am not quite sure where you are getting with your post, but I suppose it is a fairly accurate description of the bout, we were both really tired at the end, as you say.

@Anders,

thanks man, it is a great feeling when you are getting somewhere in your fencing, and the bouts we have had the alst months have really pushed me forward (sk much that I con notice it myself, and that is usually hard for me), I promise it will not get to my head more than it already has :)

@Claus,

thanks Claus, that was something I had not put much thought to actually, both you and messer Manciolini put it very eloquently. I am booking you for a sparring bout at Swordfish this year.
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Postby bigdummy » 22 Apr 2008 21:08

I agree the fencing looks good, I like the speed of transitions and reaction in the onset. One problem I see is that when you start to get a bind, sometimes you try too hard to stay in it, charging in to krieg regardless of what the other guy was doing and sometimes getting a "mutual death" as a result. You have to watch that. I also agree stepping in / off-line / using hangen or nachrisen against a charging opponent would work better (and avoid the "mutual"death"). But the guy in the black does a pretty good abzug / counterattack to deal with the charge.

the guy in the green shirt seems to have a very low zornhut at a couple of points which is causing him some problem with reach once or twice.

Overall though good coverage, good striking and winding, good intent.

BD
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Postby Roland Warzecha » 23 Apr 2008 09:46

Claus Sørensen wrote:I just found a quote from "Manciolino", sadly an italian manual! But it sums up some of what I was talking about in the post above!

The good player, when he plays with one who flees him, (which removes much grace from his valor, because seeing that one flee, he cannot do a perfect thing) must also himself feign to flee, because it will give spirit to the first who fled to come forward, and thus gracefully redress the miscarriage of his play.


Claus


Excellent quote, Claus.
I like it.
But it surely relates to a fight between gentlemen who are concerned with such things as style and grace or at least with how on-lookers would judge them (... not suggesting that our Swedish friends are anything but true gentlemen!). It also only holds true for a one-on-one situation where you have all the time you need to focus on this single opponent fight. So it is perfectly well applicable in a public duel.

I know this is off topic but I was wondering if this approach was still a good idea if you found yourself e.g. attacked in some sinister alley (... I know - we shouldn't go there in the first place!)

Have a nice day,
Roland
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Postby Axel » 23 Apr 2008 09:51

thanks for the comment BD.

here is another clip from the same session, mostly average sparring and a failed wrestling move by me at 02.32 (I should have tried to thrwo him the other way of course) but I get a nice thrust to Roberts throat in the very last sequence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59J7LLQ_XJE&feature=related
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Postby Fab » 23 Apr 2008 11:01

Roland Warzecha wrote:
Claus Sørensen wrote:I just found a quote from "Manciolino", sadly an italian manual! But it sums up some of what I was talking about in the post above!

The good player, when he plays with one who flees him, (which removes much grace from his valor, because seeing that one flee, he cannot do a perfect thing) must also himself feign to flee, because it will give spirit to the first who fled to come forward, and thus gracefully redress the miscarriage of his play.


Claus


Excellent quote, Claus.
I like it.
But it surely relates to a fight between gentlemen who are concerned with such things as style and grace or at least with how on-lookers would judge them (... not suggesting that our Swedish friends are anything but true gentlemen!). It also only holds true for a one-on-one situation where you have all the time you need to focus on this single opponent fight. So it is perfectly well applicable in a public duel.

I know this is off topic but I was wondering if this approach was still a good idea if you found yourself e.g. attacked in some sinister alley (... I know - we shouldn't go there in the first place!)

Have a nice day,
Roland



I'd slightly disagree. The italian (and others as well) books of that time had a way to express key notions under soft-sounding terms like 'grace' and stuff, while these words had, in their minds at least, an underlying aspect of martial efficiency. 'Grace', in this specific meaning, doesn't strictly mean "fancy and pretty way to move with beauty, ease and airness", but "ability to soundly use body mechanics". IMO. But that's OT.

Nice vid, Axel.
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 23 Apr 2008 11:13

Hello Roland!

I know this is off topic but I was wondering if this approach was still a good idea if you found yourself e.g. attacked in some sinister alley


If you are attacked in an alley and your attacker runs aways from you, there doesn't seem to be that big a problem for the victim does it? :wink:

Hehe, but none the less it is a good question. The approach is sound if you know how to fence! It is all about control and distance which is needed for the techniques to work. It is the only way to remove "chance/luck" from the fight and let it come down to understanding of fuhlen and Index.

You loose too much control running/reaching forwards(as does the opponent running backwards) that you will often see lucky hits on the hand but no real kills.

You know my friend/student Jonas had a hell of a problem getting over this(Still partly does, but don't tell him I said so :wink: As do I sometimes when I get lured into it :oops: ). He used to jump back and fling his sword around everytime he felt that we came too close to him. He did it just prior to us reaching the correct fighting distance. We would then have to either rush him but from that distance we would often loose our control, or fight anyway from whatever distance we could, but this resulted in us only being able to reach each others hands and pure luck and chance often decided the outcome of the battle + that the amount of techniques were very limited to us since they do not work from that distance.

Manciolinos advise helped us a lot here! It enabled us to remove som of the pure chance/luck hits we suffered from, but more important it has really improved our techniques.

But of course it is meant for a one against one - duel. If you face multiply opponents there is no shame in running away(Sound advise from Hs.3227a)

A good question

Best wishes

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Postby Claus Sørensen » 23 Apr 2008 11:18

I agree with Fab there!
:)
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Postby Lord_Nelle » 23 Apr 2008 11:21

I like your bouts.
Your wind work is super.

I agree with Martin about closing to grapple.
When in a bind I like to mix it up a little. A kick in the belly is always nice. I also like to push my oponents elbow from the bind and use the pommel.
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Postby Robert » 31 Jul 2008 01:22

Well, Axel. As I'm getting in to this forum I see you've exposed me to this forum. I thank thee for the publicity. I'm the guy in the green tee.

Now to my comment on this video. I concentrated on the footwork, which is a huge difference in this clip. You move a lot to the side, were I'm almost always linear. I'm walking the line, in a bad way :-) I myself am stuck in there, I think. I most work on that and you should just use feet a bit more to be almost impossible to hit. It seems we are very tired. As I know you by now I, for one, know that you seldom leave so many doublets. You're great at covering yourself with the sword.
I myself must practice on movement to the sides, especially the right. I do it great in zufechten but can't really perform in mittel. Distance is something I got to take a good look at. Covering my lower openings and getting more comfortable with letting go with one hand from the sword.

As I know both you and me have evolved since March I recommend this video of you and me to be scrutinized by the Schola Folks:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n1G9rj4xoII
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Postby Stevie T » 31 Jul 2008 03:51

After my escapades on the other thread I feel obliged to say something on this.

Very nice, love the movements and speed.

Whether it's just my ignorance, and I'm missing something, but it would seem to have forgotten that there are four openings.

I know Alex gets a hit to the ankle at one point but considering how often you drive each other up very high you don't seem to take advantage regarding striking the lower openings.

I know it's German but I'm pretty sure RIngeck mentions striking low if he goes high.

@Robert. In this clip, at least, you seem to like to press in with "hangen" (not sure if that's the right term) hilt high with the blade out to your right just down from horizontal. However, you don't seem to exploit the possabilities it opens for you. Ringeck would say to thrown, and you had a couple of nice opportunites.

I also think you press in too quickly with it, you often loose chances. Go more slowly and use your foot work to strike from your left, with either an oberhau or zwerch behind his blade.

Though I like the "spring"/"crump" style attack you sometimes follow it up with.

You might like to look at how Ledall (English) uses his "proffer, rake and a quarter" which is very similar to what your doing. He uses it more on the left but, I'll happily talk you through it, he gives some different timings and foot work which may help you with your exicution.

Anyway I really enjoyed watching what you both sparr, and now that I've put my money where my mouth is feel free to tell me I'm talking out of my arse.
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Postby Robert » 06 Aug 2008 21:59

Thanks for the great advice Stevie T. I'll certainly try to work on these things. Concerning the throws, you're absolutely right. I haven't got use to let go of my sword, I'm to in love with it :lol:
I' do not think my knowledge about what Ringeck says in his manuscript covers cuts to the lower body, but I think he says it's a great danger to strike at the legs 'cos your to open on your upper body. But I can't see why you shouldn't hit at the legs if you have an opening there and can at the same time protect your head efficiently.
I'll certainly look Ledall up and thanks for the tip.

I most say that your arse is extremely wise. :lol: I'm looking forward to hear what your head would say. :wink:
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Postby Stevie T » 06 Aug 2008 22:45

Robert wrote:Thanks for the great advice Stevie T. I'll certainly try to work on these things. Concerning the throws, you're absolutely right. I haven't got use to let go of my sword, I'm to in love with it :lol:
I' do not think my knowledge about what Ringeck says in his manuscript covers cuts to the lower body, but I think he says it's a great danger to strike at the legs 'cos your to open on your upper body. But I can't see why you shouldn't hit at the legs if you have an opening there and can at the same time protect your head efficiently.
I'll certainly look Ledall up and thanks for the tip.

I most say that your arse is extremely wise. :lol: I'm looking forward to hear what your head would say. :wink:


Apart from transcriptions I think the only Ledall stuff you'll find on line are mine. Ben Roberts (Canada) and Paul Wagner are the only other two looking at the English stuff.

I'll PM you and we can chat about Ledall's plays that has similarities to what you do.

It's the fundamental play of Ledall's work.
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