New Sparring Clips from Hammaborg

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Postby Frede Jensen » 02 Apr 2008 18:50

Claus you homophobe. You could do a lot worse than me mister! :wink:

I just meant that we tend to end ud speaking for each other, like a married couple. You would have said the same about our stocks of beer, port and pork eventually.

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As no one can pronounce my true name I go by Fred when abroad..
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Postby bigdummy » 02 Apr 2008 19:26

I noticed a couple of times you seemed to strike the floor with your swords, how are they holding up to that and to sparring? Could you estimate the "life expectancy" of these training swords for effective / safe use?

Also are you avoiding strikes to the lower legs?

In our group we have been monitoring your videos on I-33 and related experiments and enjoying them. We are impressed with your interpretation and appreciate you sharing your work with the HEMA community this way.

BD
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Postby Fab » 02 Apr 2008 19:56

A strike to the lower legs is dealt with a strike to the top of the head :)

so no need to avoid them, as they are rarely done, I'd say. And when they are done (ie if there is a viable opening to strike at the legs without risking that said countercut), you don't need to hit that hard, as you realize what you're doing and you're clearly having the upper hand.

Though Roland might have a different take on the subject ?
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 02 Apr 2008 21:27

Fab wrote:Though Roland might have a different take on the subject ?

Of course, you are right.
It's called Überlaufen, anyway.

And the swords hold and hold and hold and hold.

Only after two or three or whatever years of massive freeplay the crossguard of my Dürer (a Moc-blade–that incidentally and in order to contradict Roland has no fuller but a somewhat slimmer outlline) bent a trifle.
The I.33-training swords however have a tendency to bend at the blade slightly. Which can be corrected easily by counter-bending them.

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Postby bigdummy » 02 Apr 2008 21:40

Fab wrote:A strike to the lower legs is dealt with a strike to the top of the head :)

so no need to avoid them, as they are rarely done, I'd say.


I guess that depends on what kind of training you are doing Fabrice and for what purpose. I wouldn't reccomend relying on that theory in a real sword fight.

In fact I'd be glad to personally disabuse you of the notion in a full-contact sparring bout any time you like ;) . With training weapons of your choice of course.

Unless you are intentionally avoiding certain targets, an Überlaufen doesn't guarantee safety from a strike to the legs any more than a zwerch automatically protects you from any strike to the head.

BD
Last edited by bigdummy on 02 Apr 2008 22:04, edited 5 times in total.
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Postby bigdummy » 02 Apr 2008 21:41

And when they are done (ie if there is a viable opening to strike at the legs without risking that said countercut), you don't need to hit that hard, as you
realize what you're doing and you're clearly having the upper hand.


Again, that isn't necessarily the case unless you have some kind of unspoken agreement, which is why I was asking.

Dierk Hagedorn wrote:
Fab wrote:Though Roland might have a different take on the subject ?

Of course, you are right.
It's called Überlaufen, anyway.


Yeah thanks i know what that is, but you can't rely on that. Particularly with sword and buckler.

And the swords hold and hold and hold and hold.

Only after two or three or whatever years of massive freeplay the crossguard of my Dürer (a Moc-blade–that incidentally and in order to contradict Roland has no fuller but a somewhat slimmer outlline) bent a trifle.
The I.33-training swords however have a tendency to bend at the blade slightly. Which can be corrected easily by counter-bending them.

All the best
Dierk


Thanks good to know.

BD
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Postby Fab » 02 Apr 2008 23:18

I was only speaking longsword (or, remembering the 2004 Dijon tournament, backsword. actually, any single-handed thing too). And it's not just therory, mate.

If you imply you can hit me hard on the legs while I hit you on the head, ok, fair enough. You'd be dead, or in serious pain. Which is, basically, something you try to avoid in a swordfight (or any fight for the matter). It is something you tend to keep in mind - IMO.

The Threat of an Überlaufen guarantees against an adventurous strike to the legs. Mind you, I've hit people's legs countless times - because this said threat was removed (for various reasons).

Now, if the other guys does nothing : 'kill him'. That's also theory. But when it works, it works.




Edited to add missing words.
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Postby Roland Warzecha » 04 Apr 2008 15:50

Hi BD,

no, we don't have an agreement to spare any target.

The concept of überlaufen is also indirectly mentioned in I.33 so we try to apply it if necessary.

Hitting the floor with our swords is unprecision and should be remedied. The swords don't bother, though. They might get ground sharper eventually if we make it a habit!

With a shield lower targets do become an option again. In Paulus Kal's buckler section they parry high with the buckler and strike low with the sword at the same time. This does not seem to be the case in I.33.

Anyway, blows to lower openings (usually the opponent's left thigh or hip) can be countered either with überlaufen or with the same move that we use for the mutacio gladii as shown in our latest technique clip.

According to my experience it is necessary to train countering low attacks. Whenever I meet fighters with somewhat lower skills at events my overconfidence is usually punished with being hit on the thigh or hip. The attacker is usually hit in the head but this could not be an outcome to be content with. One of the reasons why it is important to regularly spar with people from outside your club.

All the best,
Roland
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Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 04 Apr 2008 17:04

Hi,
Lignitzer has cuts to the legs several times; the idea seems to be a sort of:
attack the head - he deflects it - attack the head from another angle or different action - he deflects it but raises his shield - I cut to his leg which is now exposed and unprotected - I laugh, kill him and plunder the corpse (well, that's not exactly written, but.....)
I don't remember the last time being hit on a leg while long sword freeplay. I find it to be a very different fighting with long sword or sword and buckler.
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Postby Roland Warzecha » 04 Apr 2008 17:18

Wolfgang Ritter wrote:I find it to be a very different fighting with long sword or sword and buckler.


Absolutely.
As a rule, the bigger the shield the safer you can attack your opponent's legs.

Cheers,
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Postby bigdummy » 04 Apr 2008 17:35

If you imply you can hit me hard on the legs while I hit you on the head, ok, fair enough. You'd be dead, or in serious pain. Which is, basically, something you try to avoid in a swordfight (or any fight for the matter). It is something you tend to keep in mind - IMO.


Needless to say... I'm not advocating making "sacrifice" attacks.

Fab wrote:The Threat of an Überlaufen guarantees against an adventurous strike to the legs. Mind you, I've hit people's legs countless times - because this said threat was removed (for various reasons).


That is actually what I meant ;) The potential of Überlaufen may discourage leg strikes to some extent, but it certainly does not guarantee safety from being struck there by any means does it?



BD
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Postby bigdummy » 04 Apr 2008 17:46

Wolfgang Ritter wrote:Hi,
Lignitzer has cuts to the legs several times; the idea seems to be a sort of:
attack the head - he deflects it - attack the head from another angle or different action - he deflects it but raises his shield - I cut to his leg which is now exposed and unprotected - I laugh, kill him and plunder the corpse (well, that's not exactly written, but.....)
I don't remember the last time being hit on a leg while long sword freeplay. I find it to be a very different fighting with long sword or sword and buckler.
Regards
Wolfgang


Well, it may not be official doctrine from any particular master, but one common way I have observed is a twitch from a high attack which is being anticipated (similar to the Lignitzer thing above), or a sling cut when the other fellow is in a high guard and does not correctly see the range (and thinks he is safely out of krieg), or to the back of the legs when passing -through particularly if they are covering their upper body with a hanging guard. Unless nobody is simply thinking about cutting to the legs out of habit, they are more exposed than some folks seem to think.

BD
Last edited by bigdummy on 04 Apr 2008 18:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby bigdummy » 04 Apr 2008 17:50

Roland Warzecha wrote:According to my experience it is necessary to train countering low attacks. Whenever I meet fighters with somewhat lower skills at events my overconfidence is usually punished with being hit on the thigh or hip. The attacker is usually hit in the head but this could not be an outcome to be content with. One of the reasons why it is important to regularly spar with people from outside your club.

All the best,
Roland


Agreed, and conversely, it can be a way to catch someone who is more experienced when they are napping, in spite of the body mechanics of longsword fighting it is possible to cut the legs safely, both as an opening attack and as a followup or even from a bind. Sometimes people forget to think in three dimensions, one of the basic principles of German fencing seems to me to be to attack where the openings are, and that works for high and low as well as left and right.

BD

EDIT: The most common way to catch someone with this is when they are telegraphing their expectations badly, which is not at all uncommon...
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Postby Axel » 04 Apr 2008 18:17

In longsword I think hitting the legs from the bind is one of the easiest and safest ways of doing it, with a mutieren or a krump aimed really low (binding over the weak of the opponents blade, cutting down then upwards) or the sling shot a'la Tallhofer (mot from the bind!).

Meyers rapier has alot of leg cutting, uberlaufen whitstanding.
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Postby Roland Warzecha » 08 Apr 2008 16:38

Some more long sword fights from last week's training session featuring Dierk (long trousers), Dimitri (knee pads, no back flap) and myself (short trousers).

Here' the clip.

All the best,
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Postby Motley » 08 Apr 2008 16:45

I really quite enjoyed watching this clip.
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Postby bigdummy » 08 Apr 2008 18:05

The winding, ringen etc. looks good but the entry into krieg seems almost based on a mutual agreement to bind and not to strike at initial openings.


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Postby Roland Warzecha » 09 Apr 2008 12:00

bigdummy wrote:The winding, ringen etc. looks good but the entry into krieg seems almost based on a mutual agreement to bind and not to strike at initial openings.


BD


Well spotted.
We were recently focusing on working from the bind.
That is apparently reflected in the free play. Not surprising.

It has also been suggested to train more sophisticated wrestling. We will look into that.

All the best,
Roland
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 09 Apr 2008 13:33

Hello Roland!

Seeking the bind is kind of a trademark to you guys isn't it. :wink:

I really liked the last video, especially because it shows another kind of freefighting where you choose to focus on one part of the different swordfighting techniques (Here you choose the bind and winden).

It really is one of the best ways of practicing these things as long as one remembers the other stuff and all the wonderfull techniques out there for another trainingday. :D

I think I even saw a little ½sword technique in one of the videos. Nice, it is not often that you see those. :P

There is one thing that I would like to comment on :P And that is the swordgrapping. I am one of those people who believe that it is very much possible to grap the the opponents blade. But I would also like to add that it needs to be done at the moment where the blade stops its motion, othervise it is too dangerous. But you already know that and it didn't seem to be a problem in the videos (even if there was a few missed graps here and there :) ).

But once you've grapped the blade, dont think too much about what to do next, strike or thust at once. You do not want your opponent to either rush you or make a forcefull pull on his sword. You just might not be able to hold it. He's got two hands on that grip afterall!

But there is of course another aspect of this. Your opponent should not have too long time registrering that his sword has stopped moving. Only think: How come I can't move my sword; I am trying to do a technique, and what is that coming against my head, is it a blade? :) I need to parry that but why can't I move my sword?

He should not have the time to think: I need to pull my sword back, and forcefully too. Or: Let me drop my sword and rush him.

But to make such a pull takes strenght and dedication. It is highly risky to do such if you let go of his sword at the moment he starts to pull at the sword and thereafter "ansetzen" his pulling of the sword.

And this is actually the only think I can add to the fine wideos. Do not wait too long with the next technique, attack at once once you've grabbed that blade.

Dierk and you actually managed to get yourself into a situation that resembles one of the Talhoffer plates I interpretated for my master thesis, where you''ve both grapped each others swords. I prayed silently to myself: come on, come on do the Hansi-technique. I need to show that one to you at our meeting in may! He's got some really cool solutions to that situation.

They are all nice videos and something that all us other fencers out there can learn something from! Thank you for all your time making these for us.

Best wishes

Claus
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Postby Roland Warzecha » 10 Apr 2008 12:11

Hi Claus,

thanks for your comments, very much appreciated.

As for grabbing the blade. Better idea with single swords than against a sword held with two hands I was told and that's correct of course. We will try to focus on some of the Armringen techniques next.
In any case, if your blade can be grabbed by your opponent it teaches you that it was standing still for too long.

In Vienna I go into a situaton with Toke (buckler sparring) where both of us held each other's sword blades. First reaction was to kick balls but as both of us did the same thing we just kicked each other's foot. but then I did a 360° turn still clinging to his sword while he still held mine. I got him in a lock and thrusted at his face.
Later I saw this in the Harnischfechten section of Paulus Kal.

See you soon,
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