schütten

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schütten

Postby Paul B » 24 Feb 2008 19:23

What the hell does this word mean?
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Lyceum » 24 Feb 2008 19:26

pour?
No language is justly studied merely as an aid to other purposes. It will in fact better serve other purposes, philological or historical, when it is studied for love, for itself"

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Postby Paul B » 24 Feb 2008 19:30

middle high german.

The modrrn equivalent is erschüttern - literaly "to shake/jerk/rock/agitate". I am guessing there is a nuance to the use of this that I am missing.
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Herbert » 24 Feb 2008 19:34

In which context - in what time - where, when?

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Postby Paul B » 24 Feb 2008 19:40

In aller lere | Dein ort gegen der plöss kere | Wo man von schaiden swert zuck sicht von in paiden | So sol man stercken | Die schütten recht eben mercken |

Von Danzig 8v
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 25 Feb 2008 11:46

Oh yes, the "schütten". I've asked myself that same question frequently.
I have translated it with "erschüttern“ (= to shatter), however I'm not entirely pleased with that. It is about pressing the opponent with attacks - being strong in a bind. Interestingly, the term appears only in the Roßfechten-section.

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Postby Paul B » 25 Feb 2008 13:08

So "to enter the bind strongly" would be a good general feeling for this term?
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 25 Feb 2008 13:32

I guess.

By the way: I was mistaken: The term "schütten" also occurs in the two Kampffechten sections:

44 A 8 on folio 61 v wrote:Wo man von schaiden Swert zücken sicht von ÿn paiden So sol man stercken die schu°tten recht eben merckest

44 A 8 on folio 122 r/v wrote:Wo man von schaiden swert zucken sicht von in paiden do sol man stercken die schutten recht eben mercken
[...]
vnd merck eben die schütteñ | Wenn du an ferst mit deinem swert das du recht | vñ hochgenüg mit guter sterck | Vor setzst das er dich nicht slach

Interestingly, in the first version of the comment (glosa) on 61 v the term is not mentioned at all. In the second instance - the comments by the real von Danzig - however it is.
In both cases it is about entering, or pursuing, the fight with the point threatening the opponent - which, of course, is not so very much unique at all.

So "schütten" remains a somewhat dubious term which can contain a lot of connotations. We cannot be entirely sure.

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Postby Paul B » 25 Feb 2008 15:23

Dierk Hagedorn wrote:I guess....

So "schütten" remains a somewhat dubious term which can contain a lot of connotations. We cannot be entirely sure.

All the best
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I kind of like the loss of a direct translation - it forces one to think in broader terms. This is how I try approach interpretation, so vagueness is sometimes welcome.

Cheers Dierk.
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 26 Feb 2008 10:04

Hmm, that's indeed rather dubious.
My first intent was writing, that "schutten" a misspelling of the word "schützen" = protect, defend.
But that doesn't fit to the first quote from von Danzig 8v.

But this:
vnd merck eben die schütteñ | Wenn du an ferst mit deinem swert das du recht | vñ hochgenüg mit guter sterck | Vor setzst das er dich nicht slach
seems to work with schützen = protection.

And note well the protection / when you (an ferst =) bind/ raise your sword that you (replace) right / and high enough with good strength / so that he does not strikes you

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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 26 Feb 2008 10:35

Yes, it is weird.

But then again, there are certain words that are un-translatable or have to be taken as they come, see for instance the term "alter schnitt“, or "streichen“ etc.

As far as "schutten" is concerned, there are, as I mentioned before, a lot of meanings.

My dictionaries tell me:
schütteln (shake)
erschüttern (shatter)
zittern (shiver)
schwingen (swing)
an- und ablegen der Rüstung (putting the armour on and off)
ablegen (put down)
abwerfen (throw off)
werfen von (throw from)
ziehen von (pull from)
gießen (pour)
hauen (hit)
füllen (fill)

schütte might as well mean:
Bastei (bastion)
Erdwall (mound/wall)
Speicher (magazine)
Anschwemmung (aggradation)

Enough to think about, I guess.

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