Whats with the Cult of Ringeck?????

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Whats with the Cult of Ringeck?????

Postby Bill » 27 Jan 2008 17:41

Okay, Some others and I have come to the conclusion that there is some Ringeck cult, that has taken position mostly in Europe. :shock: Now I know that some people in this group will take offense to this, but I dont care. :lol:

This Cult has devoted its self almost entirely to Ringeck. Which makes me ask, Whats the draw to Ringeck???

No seriously, I dont mean to offend I was just curious.
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 27 Jan 2008 18:41

Hi Bill,

actually, this is something I have asked myself frequently. I myself am very much in favour of the codex 44 A 8 (formerly attributed to Peter von Danzig) and both manuscripts are quite similar in some respects.
The major difference is that 44 A 8 gives credit to its single authors: Andres Lignitzer, Martin Hundfeld, Jud Ott etc. and Sigmund Ringeck does not. Sequences that are entirely the same go uncredited by Ringeck, thus he appears to be the author himself. That's bad, isn't it? Ringeck is a bloody copyright violator.

The reason for his popularity however, I guess, is due to the prominent feature he received in Martin Wierschin's book "Meister Johannes Liechtenauers Kunst des Fechtens". This was published in 1965 and was the first major approach in understanding Liechtenauer's art - by means of the Ringeck manuscript.
Aditionally, the manuscript was dated too early, thus giving it too much importance. Rainer Welle nicely proved that Ringeck came after 44 A 8. He, Welle, is convinced that Ringeck copied after 44 A 8. A chain of arguments I myself can't follow entirely, but the main issue remains correct that Ringeck is the plagiator, not the unknown writer of 44 A 8.
Aditionally again the very nice book by Christian Tobler "Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship" was another step that promoted Ringeck since it's an interpretation of his manuscript.
So it's easy to understand where this - unjustifiable - cult of Ringeck worshippping derives from: It's nothing more than a chain of incidents and accidents.

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Postby Anders Linnard » 27 Jan 2008 18:55

Can't really say what made us focus on Ringeck. We started of by mixing manuscripts and when we decided to stop with that, Ringeck was the manuscript most readily available. Plus I rather like it.

/A
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 27 Jan 2008 19:31

Hello Dierk!

I haven't read Welle's book yet! What are the new datings(Welle's) of the manuscripts?

And I believe that you are correct about Wierschin being the reason Ringeck is so popular!

Lindholm directly says that he uses Wierschins transcription in his first book on Ringeck. And my guess is that Tobler also did.

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Postby David Rawlings » 05 Feb 2008 15:14

no such thing, there is a cult of Dobey, it meets by moonlight and is the only cult to recognize the guards by their true names.

But anyway Doebringeris better, Ringeck and VD are cool but no cult. Who worships Ringeck? hands up. :)
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 05 Feb 2008 16:07

... except that dear Hanko Döbringer himself never ever mentioned the huten we love so dearly - regardless in which way.
However, he, together with his friends Andres Juden, Jost von der Nyssen and Niclas Prewssen, does mention the "eyserynen pforten" and the "schrankhute". Plus a number of other "gefechte".

Oh, sorry, I couldn't resist. Perhaps it's just me that is so particular about authorship - being an author myself.

Besides, I was somehow reminded of a house elf when I read about this cult you mentioned.

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Postby Bill » 05 Feb 2008 16:32

corporal heidi wrote:no such thing, there is a cult of Dobey, it meets by moonlight and is the only cult to recognize the guards by their true names.

But anyway Doebringeris better, Ringeck and VD are cool but no cult. Who worships Ringeck? hands up. :)


Well I have noticed, and not just on this forum but almost every forum, that there are people that no matter what you are discussing they fail to recognize other possibilities from other sources, and always fall back to "Thats not what Ringeck says". And that is not bad ( I guess), but it is frustrating.

I have not noticed this "tunnel vision" from others that study the other "liechtenaur" inspired sources.

So I was hoping that someone that is involved with this "cult" would chime in.

Plus I dont understand why they say that Ringeck is the only cohesive system, when it obviously is not. :?

I know I am not the only person to come to this conclusion (as I have had discussions with several other people about this very thing), just the only one to call attention to it.
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Postby Bill » 05 Feb 2008 16:39

Dierk Hagedorn wrote:... except that dear Hanko Döbringer himself never ever mentioned the huten we love so dearly - regardless in which way.
However, he, together with his friends Andres Juden, Jost von der Nyssen and Niclas Prewssen, does mention the "eyserynen pforten" and the "schrankhute". Plus a number of other "gefechte".

Oh, sorry, I couldn't resist. Perhaps it's just me that is so particular about authorship - being an author myself.

Besides, I was somehow reminded of a house elf when I read about this cult you mentioned.

All the best
Dierk


Authorship does not matter to me, as most of them are inspired by Liech., so they should all give him credit. But he did not come up with this style all by himself, he says so. He just put it together and had it written down.
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Postby Harry » 05 Feb 2008 16:54

corporal heidi wrote:no such thing, there is a cult of Dobey, it meets by moonlight and is the only cult to recognize the guards by their true names.

But anyway Doebringeris better, Ringeck and VD are cool but no cult. Who worships Ringeck? hands up. :)


I do and I will continue with that. but I also work with the PvD and most of all I work with the "vergleich der zettel" where you have a comparision with ringeck, lew, danzig and speyer.
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Postby Harry » 05 Feb 2008 16:56

cult of ringeck... I also never mentioned such a "cult"

I wonder why so many people like fiore :D
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Postby Bill » 05 Feb 2008 17:25

Harry wrote:cult of ringeck... I also never mentioned such a "cult"

I wonder why so many people like fiore :D


Obviously your are both trying to cover things up, secret rituals, burning Meyer dolls, worshiping tiny statues of Ringeck and all ........ (Looks about for Grand Inquisitors robe) CONFESS, CONFESS. :evil:

and I don't understand, the Italian people either. I would read the English docs, but they don't make much sense, granted it help to read them aloud, but still they are hard to understand.

Now if they only had them in Welsh, that would be the thing. (I am Welsh, German, English mix)
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Postby Fab » 05 Feb 2008 17:36

Harry wrote:I wonder why so many people like fiore :D


Because he's a nice guy.
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Postby David Rawlings » 05 Feb 2008 18:40

Harry wrote:cult of ringeck... I also never mentioned such a "cult"

I wonder why so many people like fiore :D

because they like their armour thicker on the back?
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Postby Fab » 05 Feb 2008 19:21

corporal heidi wrote:
Harry wrote:cult of ringeck... I also never mentioned such a "cult"

I wonder why so many people like fiore :D

because they like their armour thicker on the back?
:twisted:


Fioreists would never turn their backs to Liechty-ists. Nor Greeks, for the same reasons.
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Postby Stevie T » 06 Feb 2008 10:42

Bill wrote:I would read the English docs, but they don't make much sense, granted it help to read them aloud, but still they are hard to understand.


I've been doing quite a bit of work on these, especially the Additional MS 39564.

Once you get your head around the initial terminology and style it's not too difficult to work with.

I've still got a fare way to go but if you'd like I could email you what I've done so far.

I'd certainly appreciate the in put from those with more HEMA experience as I'm pretty limited having to play by myself.
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Postby Harry » 06 Feb 2008 16:20

corporal heidi wrote:
Harry wrote:cult of ringeck... I also never mentioned such a "cult"

I wonder why so many people like fiore :D

because they like their armour thicker on the back?
:twisted:


Image Image Image
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Postby Harry » 06 Feb 2008 16:23

Bill wrote:
Harry wrote:cult of ringeck... I also never mentioned such a "cult"

I wonder why so many people like fiore :D


Obviously your are both trying to cover things up, secret rituals, burning Meyer dolls, worshiping tiny statues of Ringeck and all


well I know a lot of people fencing in german longsword tradition and noone is acting in this way...

because most of the guys I know are working the "zettel" from didier und matthias where you have all 4 main-sources for german longsword in it.

there is no ringeck-cult, there is just paranoia ;)
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Postby Bill » 06 Feb 2008 17:51

Its not paranoia if people are really out to get you! :shock:
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. ukn

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Postby Bill » 06 Feb 2008 17:52

Stevie T wrote:
Bill wrote:I would read the English docs, but they don't make much sense, granted it help to read them aloud, but still they are hard to understand.


I've been doing quite a bit of work on these, especially the Additional MS 39564.

Once you get your head around the initial terminology and style it's not too difficult to work with.

I've still got a fare way to go but if you'd like I could email you what I've done so far.

I'd certainly appreciate the in put from those with more HEMA experience as I'm pretty limited having to play by myself.


That would be great, I am not sure how much help I will be but I can give it a shot.
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Re: Whats with the Cult of Ringeck?????

Postby hafoc » 05 Apr 2008 12:30

Bill wrote:Okay, Some others and I have come to the conclusion that there is some Ringeck cult, that has taken position mostly in Europe. :shock: Now I know that some people in this group will take offense to this, but I dont care. :lol:

This Cult has devoted its self almost entirely to Ringeck. Which makes me ask, Whats the draw to Ringeck???

No seriously, I dont mean to offend I was just curious.


Why, hidden within the verses is the secret of everlasting life, of course. Also, a membership in the Free Masons.
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