Mutiren?

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Mutiren?

Postby Lord_Nelle » 01 Jan 2008 15:19

Another question.

What about the mutiren?

Is it a wind of you sword with a thrust high to low?

Is it a wind over the opponents sword using his weak bind to trap his blade and thust.

Ones again I have head several differnt opinions.
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Postby Steven H » 01 Jan 2008 20:59

Our interpretation at Forte:
From the bind, if the opponent is weak at the sword, wind the tip of the sword over the opponents blade (towards your left and opponents right) by shoving your pommel under your arm (your position should resemble a false edge krump).

Thrust to the low right opening with a passing step to your left.

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Re: Mutiren?

Postby Andreas Engström » 01 Jan 2008 21:30

Lord_Nelle wrote:Another question.
What about the mutiren?

Is it a wind of you sword with a thrust high to low?

Is it a wind over the opponents sword using his weak bind to trap his blade and thust.

Yes, and yes. :-)

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Re: Mutiren?

Postby Lord_Nelle » 01 Jan 2008 23:15

Andreas Engström wrote:
Lord_Nelle wrote:Another question.
What about the mutiren?

Is it a wind of you sword with a thrust high to low?

Is it a wind over the opponents sword using his weak bind to trap his blade and thust.

Yes, and yes. :-)

-Andreas


Hmm. So it could be both.

That would explain a lot of my confusion. Does it differ from different masters?

Does Liehtenauer, Ringeck , Talhoffer etc use the same term for the same technic?
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Postby Herbert » 02 Jan 2008 10:14

Basically mutieren means changing the target of your attack.

Typically in a mutieren your opponent parries a thrust form you - say to the chest. As you are in a bind already you take the weak of the opponents blade with your own strong and change your thrust form the chest to the lower opening, eg. belly taking his sword with you. This makes it a Winden.

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Re: Mutiren?

Postby Andreas Engström » 02 Jan 2008 10:50

Lord_Nelle wrote:
Andreas Engström wrote:
Lord_Nelle wrote:Another question.
What about the mutiren?

Is it a wind of you sword with a thrust high to low?

Is it a wind over the opponents sword using his weak bind to trap his blade and thust.

Yes, and yes. :-)

-Andreas


Hmm. So it could be both.

That would explain a lot of my confusion. Does it differ from different masters?

Does Liehtenauer, Ringeck , Talhoffer etc use the same term for the same technic?

I saw no contradiction in the two. Yes, it is a "wind with a thrust from high to low", at least if you thereby mean "to a lower opening". Yes, it is also a move where you trap his blade (with your strong against his weak) and thrust. Where lies the contradiction?

In a mutieren you go over his sword to the outside, in the canonical case with a winding so that the short edge goes against his blade (though that isn't strictly necessary), catching his weak with your strong and thrusting to the lower opening. Like Herbert says. Though of course it doesn't have to be from the parry of a thrust, it works from any bind where he's reasonably weak.

I find it to work well if his hands are rather high (which makes the duplieren or winding to a thrust to the face a bit hard to manage). If his hands are low you're IMHO much better off doing something else.

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Postby philippe willaume » 24 Jan 2008 18:45

Hello
Well when you wind one could argue that you will always use mutiren or duplieren. (but the reverse is not true)

The way they present any concept is by using a concrete exemple. So There are may be a few differences in how the different masters present mutiren or duplieren.

Non the less they all agree that duplierien break the high opening and mutiren breaks the lower (or other) openings

Which ever the example they use you always climb on the strong to Duplieren and go to the weak when Mutiren.

If we look how we finishes any pieces we do from the bind, mutiren and dupliern are a way to insure our safety by effectively blocking any direct counter.
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 24 Jan 2008 23:19

Good evening,

is it really that difficult? I should say it isnt't.

In you initial post, Lord Nelle, you got it quite right.
Consider a duplieren as a doubled Hau (strike), and a mutieren as the change from a strike to a thrust. The trick with the mutieren is to stay in the binding.

That's it.

If you have an opponent whom you were unable to hit in the first place (for what reaseon ever) but who refrains to remain hard in the binding, you just don't leave from his blade. What can you do?
You can thrust.
And since you want to control his sword, you wind up and thus thrust to his lower opening.

Best regards
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Postby Fab » 25 Jan 2008 05:26

Good to see you here Dierk.

Thanks.
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 25 Jan 2008 09:57

I wil second that Dierk! Good explanation!

It is good to see you on this forum, my friend!

Best wishes

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Postby Claus Sørensen » 25 Jan 2008 22:43

Hello Again!

There is one thing that I would like to add to the discussion:

Quote Vd:

vnd stich ÿm zu der underñ plöss

In my oppinion the word "zu" should be translated into "towards" not "to", meaning that it only emphasizes that we are talking about a downward thrust towards a lower opening, not a speciffic targetzone
As long as you hit your opponent with this downward thrust it doesn't matter if you are 5 cm below og above the belt(normally what divides the upper and lower openings). :wink:

Now this might be a small thing but I do think there is a difference between choosing a speciffic target or choosing a principle.

Best wishes

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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 26 Jan 2008 15:58

Hi Claus,

as I have already told you this might very well be so. But I wouldn't over-emphasise this. As you know:
The medieval word »zu« has a number of meanings:
to, in, next to, when, for, on, against, towards, in relation to, into etc.

I do agree however, that the word "zu" has a strong connotation towards "in direction to". As well as now as then.

You certainly should aim towards a target. But you also should make sure to set your point into that target.

I don't see too dramatic a difference.

Best greetings
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 26 Jan 2008 18:17

Hello Dierk!
I don't see too dramatic a difference.


I agree. :wink: I just wantes to say that according to me is not a criteria to speciffic hit the lower openings if you want do a mutieren. It is just the direction of the thrust. Who cares where it hits as long as it does! :)

Best wishes

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