Dupliren?

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Dupliren?

Postby Lord_Nelle » 01 Jan 2008 15:16

I have trained with the longsword for 2 years now and I have q question.

What about the dupliren?

Is it a winding of the sword . with a low to high thrust to the upper openings?

Is it a winding of the sword behing you opponents sword using his strong bind? From a right bind you put your point left behind his blade.

I have heard several different opinons on the matter.
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Postby Herbert » 01 Jan 2008 18:09

The duplieren is rather simple: You are in a bind after an Oberhau from the right, the bind is rather strong, you have bound strong against strong, the opponents blade/point does not threaten you directly. You then push your pommel under your right elbow thus circling your blade over the opponents blade and you strike from the left side between his blade and himself. The end position looks like this:
Image

The opponents blade is caught on your crossguard if necessary.

Or - for a full instruction, look on Page 86 of my book :wink:

hope I could help

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Postby Lord_Nelle » 01 Jan 2008 18:37

Thanks.

Thats what i thought. I had to chesk since I have seen different interpretations. Does it change according to different fencing master?

Does Liechtenauer, Ringeck and Talhoffer use the same?
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Postby Paul B » 01 Jan 2008 18:50

I would add, make sure you move to a safe position as you duplieren, otherwise you are open for a suicidal stike or thrust from the dying man. That move could be with the cut (ie forward and right, or back and right, off the line you just opened by moving your sword.
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Richard Strey » 01 Jan 2008 19:11

There's not going to be any "suicidal strike" from the opponent as you double over his sword: You perform this action *only* if he's strong in the bind. This, in turn, eliminates the possibility of him leaving the bind and hitting you as you perfom the Duplieren. If he becomes weak in the bind indes, you obviously have to adapt, but that's trivial.
Remember, that all devices (like duplieren, mutieren or winden) can be performed using the three Wounders (cut, thrust or slice) and one should always carefully choose the right one.
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Postby admin » 01 Jan 2008 19:24

May I add that this only works on someone whose arms are entended, as if they have cut or made a zornhau - if they have made something like a parry, closer to their body, then the angles don't work to do this. Probably stating the obvious, but I have seen some people try this as a follow-up to an oberhau on Fiore people who cross closer to their bodies, and it doesn't work in this way unless the Fiore person makes a bad cross.
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Postby Steven H » 01 Jan 2008 20:54

Herbert wrote:The duplieren is rather simple: You are in a bind after an Oberhau from the right, the bind is rather strong, you have bound strong against strong, the opponents blade/point does not threaten you directly. You then push your pommel under your right elbow thus circling your blade over the opponents blade and you strike from the left side between his blade and himself.

The opponents blade is caught on your crossguard if necessary.

Or - for a full instruction, look on Page 86 of my book :wink:

hope I could help

Herbert


Thanks for the picture (it's a shame I don't read German because I am interested in your book).

Is there a particular footwork that you prefer for this action?

Richard Strey wrote:Remember, that all devices (like duplieren, mutieren or winden) can be performed using the three Wounders (cut, thrust or slice) and one should always carefully choose the right one.

Good point. At Forte we've been playing with duplieren as a front crossover step (aka "shield step"), which closes the range to make it usually as much slice as cut.

Richard Strey wrote:There's not going to be any "suicidal strike" from the opponent as you double over his sword: You perform this action *only* if he's strong in the bind. This, in turn, eliminates the possibility of him leaving the bind and hitting you as you perfom the Duplieren. If he becomes weak in the bind indes, you obviously have to adapt, but that's trivial.

True, however, the technique should still finish in a position where the opponent is hampered from striking back. This is the primary reason for our interpretation as a step in - it allows you to choke up against the opponents blade so they don't have space to strike. (hope that made sense :D )

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Postby Andreas Engström » 01 Jan 2008 21:44

I agree completely with Herbert, would just add that one can do a duplieren from the bind on the left side as well. I would classify any technique where you strike directly from a strong upper bind between the sword and the man as a form of duplieren. You may come from a left alber/wechselhut with a streychen against his right oberhau as well, and do a form of duplieren.

I'd also add that IMHO it works best if his hands are not too high.

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Postby Richard Strey » 01 Jan 2008 23:33

Matt, you are right. If the "parry" happens closer to the body and/or more to the side, the German system would have you perform "Oben abnehmen", that is, slipping up the opponent's sword and down the other side while maintaining blade contact throughout.
So, those fencer's problem lies with their choice of action, not the system used.
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Postby Herbert » 02 Jan 2008 10:11

Steven H wrote:Is there a particular footwork that you prefer for this action?

You usually step slightly to the left with your left foot.

I only explained it from the right side, of course it works also from the left although it is seldom done from the left.

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Postby Anders Linnard » 02 Jan 2008 10:17

Herbert wrote:
Steven H wrote:Is there a particular footwork that you prefer for this action?

You usually step slightly to the left with your left foot.

I only explained it from the right side, of course it works also from the left although it is seldom done from the left.

Herbert


I agree. But I usually step quite a lot. The more to the left you are, the more you stop him from being able to hit you.
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Postby Steven H » 02 Jan 2008 15:05

Herbert wrote:
Steven H wrote:Is there a particular footwork that you prefer for this action?

You usually step slightly to the left with your left foot.

I only explained it from the right side, of course it works also from the left although it is seldom done from the left.

Herbert


Interesting. So you're stepping away from the motion of the sword - stepping against the strike instead of with.

That's counter-intuitive to me. Also, I prefer to have a complete 'system' so that, for instance, you always step with a strike and never step against a strike.

But I'll try it your way and explore. Thanks.
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Postby Herbert » 02 Jan 2008 15:26

If you try it, it will make sense immediately. It also gives the strike some power because you pivot aroun and therefore you ARE stepping with the strike.

Just try it and keep in mind that you need a strong bind etc. as mentioned above.
If it doesn't work - tell me, I will try to explain in more detail or even make a video.

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