What Fightbook do you use?? and Why?

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What Fightbook do you use?? and Why?

Postby Bill » 22 Nov 2007 16:59

I started off reading Meyer, but quickly found that other MS filled in the "Blanks" so to speak. So now I also like to read, refer to, and study as many books as possible. I
find it interesting to compare the strikes between Masters to get a feel for what they think it should be or how they think it should be done. Different Masters have a different way of looking a things, or have considered options that Others may not have thought of.

I suppose it is kind of like bouncing Ideas off each other on the internet.

Cheers,
Bill
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. ukn

What hurts.....Teaches German poverb

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Postby TheDude » 22 Nov 2007 17:26

I use Ringeck as the template and then read the other texts to give extra detail or a different slant on the techniques. Like Meyer, Danzig and Dobringer. Also, the pictures in Gladatoria are very pretty :-)
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Postby admin » 22 Nov 2007 17:36

If you read Fiore, that's all you need. :P
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Postby TheDude » 22 Nov 2007 17:56

If :-)

Of course, if you like to read the good stuff, stay with the Germans ;-)
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Postby Nikos » 22 Nov 2007 17:57

Hey Matt, look at the forum category, your gatecrashing your own forum! infecting good people with such Italian nonsense, you should be whipped!
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Postby TheDude » 22 Nov 2007 18:07

Whipped and whipped good!
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Postby AdamR » 22 Nov 2007 19:33

Studying Fiore rather than Liechtenauer - he probably will...
:lol: :P
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Postby admin » 22 Nov 2007 19:42

TheDude wrote:Whipped and whipped good!


Feel free to come and try. :twisted:
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Postby admin » 22 Nov 2007 19:43

AdamR wrote:Studying Fiore rather than Liechtenauer - he probably will...
:lol: :P


Tell that to all the Liechtenauer people I beat at the BFHS AGM longsword competition Midlander. :twisted:
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Postby Bill » 22 Nov 2007 19:59

AdamR wrote:Studying Fiore rather than Liechtenauer - he probably will...
:lol: :P


hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!1
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Postby TheDude » 22 Nov 2007 20:30

Hey, entering a 1 man competition doesn't count :-)
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Postby Lord_Nelle » 22 Nov 2007 21:33

The best fighter always win, regardless of style. (Unless you use howitzer vs Teaspoon) :lol:

We use Ringeck and Doebringer for our base. (David Lindholms book is a good base)
After that we use Talhoffer.
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Postby AdamR » 23 Nov 2007 00:23

admin wrote:
TheDude wrote:Whipped and whipped good!


Feel free to come and try. :twisted:

And remove the mystery? :lol:

And the best fighter doesn't always win I'm afraid - they might carry an advantage - but luck and circumstance can provide other outcomes.
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Postby Richard Strey » 23 Nov 2007 08:45

We use Ringeck and von Danzig, Döbringer is nice for tactical advice and general mindset, Meyer has the most complete and consistend vocabulary and description of devices and how to train.
Of the first three, I prefer von Danzig, since I find the handwriting more easy to read than Ringeck or Döbringer. I can cope with all of them, though, so this is strictly a personal thing.
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Postby admin » 23 Nov 2007 12:19

TheDude wrote:Hey, entering a 1 man competition doesn't count :-)


How could I beat Liechtenauer students in a 1 man competition? I take it maths is not your strong point. ;)
From what I can see there are three types of Liechtenauer students, ones who know what they are doing and fence well, and not unlike Fiore students, ones who just flail like children with sticks and use Liechtenauer quotes as an excuse, and those who just do whatever they feel like, and call it 'Talhoffer'. One thing is evident, as I have seen from judging competitions in Dijon and Vienna over the years - if you take 20 Liehctenauer students and put them together then they all fence very differently, with only a few common reference points. Fiore/Vadi students all seem to fence more or less similarly however. What the reasons are for this, well that's another topic.
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Postby TheDude » 23 Nov 2007 12:22

You have an interesting point there actually, I have seen many people that are supposedly studying the German tradition and seems to just use re-enactment type techniques with some flailing. They often use the talhoffer excuse.
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Postby Martin Wallgren » 23 Nov 2007 12:30

I think the reason for the Talhoffer thingie you talk about could be that he is kind of hard to understand as a newbee. You have to know the more mainstream Liechtenauer tradition first. Also the book by Marc Rector, Medieval Combat, is a quite bad one and have confused alot of students.

What do our own Talhoffer expert Claus think?
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Postby Richard Strey » 23 Nov 2007 13:42

My take on this:
Fiore -from what I've seen at meetings, a look at the manual and Guy Windsor's book- contains a lot of what I think the German masters meant in their preface when they wrote (paraphrased):
"Liechtenauer was a cool guy, but he wrote his stuff down in code, so the shitheads don't steal it. Now I'm gonna comment his verses, so anyone who already knows how to beat people up can read it, too."

German original:
" Die gedicht und gemacht hat | Johannes liechtenauer der ein hoher maister in der kunst gewesen ist dem got genädig sey | Und dar umb das die kunst fürsten | und herren | Ritter | und knechten zů gehört das sÿ die wissen und lernen süllen | Dar umb hat er sÿ lassen schreiben mit verporgen | und verdachten worten das sÿ ÿeder man nicht vernemen | und versten sol | Und hat das getan durch der leichtfertigen schirmaister willen die ir kunst gering wegen das von den selbigen maisteren sein kunst nicht geoffenwart noch gemein solt werden | und die selbigen verporgen | und verdachten wort der zedel die stenn her nach in der glosen | also verklert | und ausgelegt das sÿ yderman wol vernemen | und versten mag der do anders fechten kan"

Now, I'm in no way implying that the Italian stuff is inferior, less complex or anything. It just seems to me that the Germans left a lot of stuff out and only wrote down the intricate winding/binding. So there are those practitioners that learn "simple fighting" as a base to build the difficult stuff on and those that don't. For example, our group and Zornhau have different classes for beginners and advanced fencers. The first train "idiot fencing" with doubletime actions, basic footwork, striking drills etc. The latter then go to singletime actions, tactile fencing and so on.
Others try to do that stuff without a decent foundation and most look more like dancers than fighters.
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Postby J. F. McBrayer » 23 Nov 2007 17:16

admin wrote:Fiore/Vadi students all seem to fence more or less similarly however. What the reasons are for this, well that's another topic.


Could it be that the Fiore/Vadi community is simply smaller? I know that I've had more trouble finding practise partners studying Fiore than if I were willing to study Liechtenauer. But that could be because I'm in the US, which is dominated by ARMA, which mainly studies L.
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Postby admin » 23 Nov 2007 17:53

I'm not sure it is smaller over here - half of the medieval HEMA groups in the UK, France and Scandinavia focus on the Italian things. In Europe it's only really the Germanic and Slavic countries that are predominantly Liechtenauerish, I think (and we're only really talking about maybe 30 or 40 medieval HEMA groups in the whole of Europe, maybe less).
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