So, does shaytel breaks alber?

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Postby Lord_Nelle » 26 Nov 2007 08:45

Jose SP wrote:The head and hands are (roughly) at the same distance, if you draw a straight line. But, from vom tag, the sword is not going move ike that, it's moving in an arc. No matter how you put it, you will reach the head faster than the hands, as your point have to pass the angle the head is at before you reach the hands.
I don't see how Döbringer and Ringeck says anywhere that you should attack the hands if he's waiting in alber. They do say that you should go for the upper openings rather than the lower ones.
While the hands is indeed a safer target, it's also slower and easier for him to deflect by just moving his hands into a lower hengen. It's harder (slower) for the opponent to move into cron from alber (or to cut the hands)..


They all talk about principles, not rules, they sometimes contadict each other. If we only where to use what they have written it would be quite a limited fencing. You have to interpret the principles and you them the way it works for you. It works different if you are long, short, heavy, light and so on. Döbringer talks about the line. Like a string attached to the tip of your sword and to your opponent. If I shaytel both me and my opponent has the line, ie I´m unsafe, he can stab me or cut my arms or such. If i go for his hands with a slight sidestep, I´ve got the line, not him. By using this I´ll use 3 Liecthenauer principles, movement, controll of the line and forcing the opponent to defend.

There is also a play from Danzig that shows a man in static Alber that counters a shaytler with a scherchaw.
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Postby bigdummy » 26 Nov 2007 16:52

To me it's also about the guards, if you are in alber, and I'm in high vom tag, i can threaten you because the shietel is going to be an effective counter to most of what you can do from there since i can out reach you.

But being able to break a guard does not trump things like telegraphing or speed. If you are telegraphing your intent I don't care what guard I'm in I'll get you.

BD
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Postby Martin Wallgren » 26 Nov 2007 17:56

bigdummy wrote:
But being able to break a guard does not trump things like telegraphing or speed. If you are telegraphing your intent I don't care what guard I'm in I'll get you.

BD


I agree!

To get to focused on one of the principles and then ignore the others is foolish.

Then again, what would we have forums and internet for if not argue in eternity over things, eh!
Last edited by Martin Wallgren on 26 Nov 2007 18:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Anders Linnard » 26 Nov 2007 18:11

bigdummy wrote:To me it's also about the guards, if you are in alber, and I'm in high vom tag, i can threaten you because the shietel is going to be an effective counter to most of what you can do from there since i can out reach you.

But being able to break a guard does not trump things like telegraphing or speed. If you are telegraphing your intent I don't care what guard I'm in I'll get you.

BD


What do you mean with out reach?

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Postby bigdummy » 26 Nov 2007 18:30

I mean because the arms connect at the shoulders, it seems from my experience that i can strike from above, from starting in a high position to long point for example (i.e. shietel) quickly and effectively at a longer range than someone coming from under from a low guard like alber.

Not certain of the physics, but it certainly seems to work that way.

On the other hand if they are in the middle, pflug say, I'd rather be in a wrath or in another defensive guard like ochs or pflug myself, or in alber.

BD

EDIT: I guess the most accurate way to describe it is that the point of my sword will get to them at a long extension quicker and with more strength in a shietel than coming up from below.
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Postby Anders Linnard » 26 Nov 2007 22:28

I would say that the bind is highly depending on how you do it. So you could just as easily make a strong bind from alber by turning your sword or raise your cut to set the other blow aside. And since your arms are attached to your shoulders whatever guard you stand in, the longpoint will always give you the furthest reach, no matter what guard you come from.

But I believe you are right regarding the power of the strike from above. I do however not agree that you can threaten me more effectively, generally speaking, from a high vom tag. At least not in any real way, although it might feel that way, since we are usually more aware of threats to our head than to other parts of the body.

/Anders

bigdummy wrote:I mean because the arms connect at the shoulders, it seems from my experience that i can strike from above, from starting in a high position to long point for example (i.e. shietel) quickly and effectively at a longer range than someone coming from under from a low guard like alber.

Not certain of the physics, but it certainly seems to work that way.

On the other hand if they are in the middle, pflug say, I'd rather be in a wrath or in another defensive guard like ochs or pflug myself, or in alber.

BD

EDIT: I guess the most accurate way to describe it is that the point of my sword will get to them at a long extension quicker and with more strength in a shietel than coming up from below.
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Postby bigdummy » 26 Nov 2007 23:22

I would say that the bind is highly depending on how you do it. So you could just as easily make a strong bind from alber by turning your sword or raise your cut to set the other blow aside. And since your arms are attached to your shoulders whatever guard you stand in, the longpoint will always give you the furthest reach, no matter what guard you come from.


By turning your sword you mean going to kron?

It just seems to get to long-point fully extended easier and swifter when coming down from the center and high, and due to your arms being 'attached to your shoulders' instead of your knees seems to defeat an attempt to come to long point from below, in addition to the effect of gravity.

Anders Linnard wrote:But I believe you are right regarding the power of the strike from above. I do however not agree that you can threaten me more effectively, generally speaking, from a high vom tag. At least not in any real way, although it might feel that way, since we are usually more aware of threats to our head than to other parts of the body.


What I mean by that is that the high vom tag seems to have a longer range wheras the shoulder vom tag seems quicker.

Therefore when I want to out reach someone in a low guard I like high vom tag (in the middle) when they are in the middle guard especially threatening with a point I prefer to be on the shoulder or in a defensive guard.

I haven't read that from any master but it does seem to bear out. Maybe we are doing something wrong. As does alber usually being trumped by a high guard, with a passing step back you are usually at least safe to strike unless they change. Of course you must retain other options depending on what they do and not telegraph intent under any circumstances.


BD
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Postby Anders Linnard » 27 Nov 2007 09:30

bigdummy wrote:
By turning your sword you mean going to kron?



No, going to a longpoint with the long edge up, like an upper absetzen if he comes down.

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Re: So, does shaytel breaks alber?

Postby HuubB » 30 Jun 2008 18:14

Jose SP wrote:Some time ago there was a discussion on this, that some people couldn't make a shaytel break the guard of alber. Not with a step with the rear foot anyway, as the "Alber" could just take a step backwards and do a raising cut to the hands.
What happened to that discussion?
There was some arguments that you should strike when he just arrived to alber, "because guards aren't static", but the Goliath ms says (taken from http://www.schielhau.org/goliath.p61-80.html) "...when you come to him in pre-fencing, and he stands against you in the fool's guard..."
which to me means he stands in alber waiting for you.
The ms also says that you should stand with your left foot forward and sword on your right shoulder and then strike with force.
The only thing I can come up with is that you don't step backwards, because it's not "manly" but I rather believe there is something wrong in the interpretation, as there is mentioning on disengaging and even running away from several opponents in some manuscripts.


My first reply as a new member of this forum, but practising and studying Liechtenauer tradition for quite some time.
Though I teach my own students, I still consider myself just as a student with different responsibilities.

My view on your -by the way interesting- question is this:

The big advantage of Scheitelhau over the guard Alber is geometry.
You can test this as follows:
-have your training partner simply stand still, his arms at his side
-you stand before him at a distance at which you can juuuust hit him with a Scheitelhau (so assume a kind of Langenort position).
-now after you have done that you will notice that if your sword is, in this example, fairly horizontal; you have quite a lot of reach
-now from his upper body you go down with your own sword until you are in the guard Alber (your point somewhere at his knees-height)
-at this moment you will notice that you cannot-from the same unaltered distance- reach your opponent with your sword if you stand in the Alber

You can also face a wall and do the above when no partner is around. My point here is that the shallower the angle of you sword is the less reach you have, the wider your angle (close to 90 degrees) the more reach you have. That is your 'breaking' the Alber.

Now let your trainingpartner assume Alber
You assume Vom Tag and strike a Scheitelhau at his head, you still have more reach than your opponent. And yes he can try to hit your arms but if you do not hit his head, so you fall short, your Scheitelhau continues its path, preventing him to place a meaningful strike.

So, apart from distance, timing is very important here
Something else: if you step out of his probable line of attack (or, counterattack) he will not be able to reach you at all.

You basically outreach him by having a better attack angle. There is a similarity with the concept of: überlaufen here.

Would you have more questions, please feel free to ask.

Huub

oops, I now see that this is a very old thread from 2007 :)
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Postby Jose SP » 30 Jun 2008 20:44

The issue is that the opponent in Alber can still cut your outstretched hands while stepping backwards out of your reach.
I always do shaytel when I'm as close as possible so I can either hit him directly or to at least be able to thrust the other guy in the chest with a small step.
The cut has to be a very quick, snapping movement. Most of the times this means the opponent moves out of Alber before i reach the right distance so then I have to do something else.
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Postby HuubB » 30 Jun 2008 22:12

Jose SP wrote:The issue is that the opponent in Alber can still cut your outstretched hands while stepping backwards out of your reach.
I always do shaytel when I'm as close as possible so I can either hit him directly or to at least be able to thrust the other guy in the chest with a small step.
The cut has to be a very quick, snapping movement. Most of the times this means the opponent moves out of Alber before i reach the right distance so then I have to do something else.


Hi Jose,

I misread your message then, I saw Alber and Scheitel and in writing mode I went :-)

yes your opponent can do that while stepping back, true.
And the Scheitel can be done very fast and snappy.
When you step offline (out of his attackline) you will be able to prevent being hit on your hands. This stepping offline or at least not straight at your opponent is mentioned in the manuscript 3227a number of times. (for example in 19V:

..."auch meint her das eyner den hewen nicht gleich sal nochgehen sonder etwas beseites und krummes umbe”...(3227a 19V)

it says:..."also it means that one should not step straight after the strike but somewhat more sideways and curved around"...

Usually (now going slightly off topic), if my original technique, concept, attack is foiled, I will indeed not force my original attack, but be flexible and flow into something else.

Or, in a wider perspective, if your original goal is not achieved, you should strive for another, but still worthy goal.
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Postby Jose SP » 30 Jun 2008 23:59

I don't think stepping offline can do much to prevent a rising cut against the hands from hitting, it's rather easy to move the tip of your sword to adjust to your opponents entire body movement.
I m o the only option is to strike faster than he can react properly, which means you threaten him in such a way so that he can't just step backwards to avoid the point, but rather force him to engage - bind - your blade.
For this, you need to step closer than most people usually would before attacking, which makes sence against Alber as it's such a poor attacking position to begin with.
You could, as was mentioned in this thread, attack the hands / seek a bind.
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Postby HuubB » 01 Jul 2008 07:06

Jose SP wrote:I don't think stepping offline can do much to prevent a rising cut against the hands from hitting, it's rather easy to move the tip of your sword to adjust to your opponents entire body movement.
I m o the only option is to strike faster than he can react properly, which means you threaten him in such a way so that he can't just step backwards to avoid the point, but rather force him to engage - bind - your blade.
For this, you need to step closer than most people usually would before attacking, which makes sence against Alber as it's such a poor attacking position to begin with.
You could, as was mentioned in this thread, attack the hands / seek a bind.


The stepping in close, do you do that from an angle or not?
(I mean, when you have stepped in, is his sword at either your left or right (low)side? Just asking to get a picture of how you step in)

I agree on the hitting first (or as is mentioned in the manuscripts: win the
' Vorschlag' ) , then it is up to him to see what he does about it.
And having to go from Alber position, all the way to the height at which the Scheitelhau is initially aimed will be too late for him.

With closing in there might be a problem because he can use the
'Krauthacke' against you (simply hitting his point up into your groin, it is described in 3227a). Hence my question above about how you close in.

I would say -as I agree with you on hitting faster and the possibility of getting hit in the hands- you try to

-hit faster than he can react
-step offline to make countering more difficult for him (but make sure you do that at the same moment that he is under attack)
-if you close in on him, make sure that you do that from an angle
-seeking a bind will - of course- always be an option
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Postby Jose SP » 01 Jul 2008 21:40

When I've finished the strike, I have just started to take a step. I try to lean my body back and shoot it forward, I think that in that way I can close to him even more before he sees the danger and react.
But, the step I take is indeed an offline step, to make the follow-up thrust easier and to avoid your mentioned nutcracker :shock:

If he tries to thrust from Alber (which he must be doing with a step or you are doing something wrong), you do a krumphau to his hands or his sword and then cut him in the face, while stepping offline.
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Postby Gaëtan » 15 Jul 2008 16:09

Hello,

Every time I try to make a Scheitelhaw from Von tag to my opponent, he cuts my hands. The unterhau to my hands comes faster than the Scheitelhaw to the top of his head (because of the distance).

Finally we have find a solution. When my opponent waits or comes into Alber, I must do exactly the same thing. In that guard I can break the distance and suddently strike his head with the Scheitelhaw. In Alber, my hands are protected against any unterhau, touching his sword I can reduce the distance and strike him. Instead of striking my hands, my opponent will only want to cover himself from my Scheitel.

The principle works in sprechfechten too. When both swords are pointed to the floor you can leave the contact to Scheitel ( respecting the indes of course).

Bye and sorry for my bad english.
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