What is a krumphau?

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What is a krumphau?

Postby admin » 24 Oct 2007 11:25

Hmm? :twisted:
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Postby Hans Heim » 24 Oct 2007 11:56

Hi out there,

for me is the "core" of a Krumphau, what makes it a "Krumphau" the way of the position of your body compared to the cutting way and the way of cutting.

In the Oberhau and the Unterhau your body is mor or less behind the sword and behind the line of the cut. With the Krumphau you are in a 90° position to your cut.

The Zwerchhau and the Schielhau are very similar here also. Alex Kiermayer has made the comparison of a windscreen wiper, or you can think of a fan and that is how the cut moves.

You can make it with the Lange Schneide or with the Kurze Schneide from both sides, does not matter. You stand in 90° behind the wiper.

Servus

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Postby Fab » 24 Oct 2007 12:14

What Hans said.
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Postby Anders Linnard » 24 Oct 2007 12:49

We've had this discussion a thousand times already. The funny thing about all of it is that all the people I have discussed with who I have met basically do the same thing, although they disagree on the net. Windshield wiper or a "bent" strike? Depends on aim and incoming strike.
/Anders
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Postby bigdummy » 24 Oct 2007 15:32

Krumphau seems to be one strike everyone has their own slight variation on, but I think it's pretty simple, it's just not as easy to describe or know how to execute before you ever actually use it. Once you have displaced a few thrusts with a krumph it seems to fall into place.
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Postby Harry » 24 Oct 2007 15:50

hans described it nicely....

but please mention, that you are at the krumphau your body is also behind your sword!

why? well you step far outside the line nearly next to the oponennet, and sword going to the side where you stood moments before....so theoretically your body is behind the sword ;)

but matt.... what do you want to know about the krumphau????

for what it is used? how is it done?

what do you want to know???
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Postby Matclarke » 24 Oct 2007 17:27

Agree with what others have said.
But I'll add some more.
Stefan Dieke desribes it something like this-
Imagine a box around you, the krumphau cuts along / forms the side that you are directly looking at like a windscreen wiper (with Schielhau doing the sides and Zwerchau doing the top).

I find it is best done with a torquing motion made with the hands.
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Postby admin » 24 Oct 2007 23:50

I am asking because I have seen it done differently by Philippe Willaume, Chris Stride and Dave Rawlings... but I'm not sure how they do it right now. Do your versions of it agree with Toblers? Who disagrees how it is done?
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Postby Harry » 25 Oct 2007 01:31

therefore I have to check doblers explaination.

I will check this tomorrow and will tell you.
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Postby Jeffrey Hull » 27 Oct 2007 21:07

That is so easy. :roll:

It is the crumple-hew. :wink:
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Postby David Rawlings » 28 Oct 2007 11:48

I'd like to point out I do the krump differently to myself
I think there are variations of the krump... so there :D Doebringer I think takes away from the windscreen wiper slightly, but that's my opinion.
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Postby T.L. Johnson » 09 Nov 2007 00:23

Crook, as in a shephards' crook?
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Re: What is a krumphau?

Postby David Welch » 12 Nov 2007 07:44

admin wrote:What is a krumphau?


There isn't "a" Krumphau.

The krump along with the rest of all the masterstrikes is not a strike. It is a principle, and the masters use a strike that uses the krump principle in it as their example.

I personally think that if you took almost any of the manuscripts and where you think "technique", replace it with "underlying principle" and we would all be closer to the truth.

A krump is where you strike in a crooked manner by stepping in one direction but cutting in the other, usually with crossed hands.

I try to do it like this so I can quickly unwind to strike to the inside. I am in R plow facing an uberhau. As soon as I see it being launched I step to the right and cut into the uberhau with my long edge. As soon as it is knocked off line I am close to this: get into R unicorn and move it to the left side, long edge out. Now snap the short edge to the head.

That is not the crooked strike. It is a crooked strike with a follow up.

Just my opinion.
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Postby AdamR » 18 Nov 2007 01:07

Hmm - I hate to differ from Hans - but I might do here - at least - until I'm beaten into submission -

A krumphau to me is what is being described above - but not necessarily by as much as is being stated (maybe I'm taking the description too literally though..?)

I'd say it was a cut that was crooked to the line - and could be as shallow as 30 degrees or so - up to 90 degrees.
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Postby Stevie T » 20 Nov 2007 11:04

Just as a question from someone learning.

If this whole thing about the krump is about striking perpendicular to the line of site then would the technique below be describe as a form of krump?

He strikes vertical oberhau, you strike Zornhau, he very strong at bind and pushes you sword off line. You then pull off his blade and strike around his blade to the left with crossed hands and with the short edge.

I'm working from the principle that Ringeck seems to fit a variety of named techniques into a sort of "family" of strikes, like oberhau covering a variety of named strike from various angles from above.

Cheers

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Postby Andreas Engström » 20 Nov 2007 11:57

Stevie T wrote:Just as a question from someone learning.

If this whole thing about the krump is about striking perpendicular to the line of site then would the technique below be describe as a form of krump?

He strikes vertical oberhau, you strike Zornhau, he very strong at bind and pushes you sword off line. You then pull off his blade and strike around his blade to the left with crossed hands and with the short edge.

I'm working from the principle that Ringeck seems to fit a variety of named techniques into a sort of "family" of strikes, like oberhau covering a variety of named strike from various angles from above.

Cheers

Steve

That sounds like a left zwerchhau (or schielhau, you don't specify whether you strike vertically or horizontally) after an abnehmen. Or do you mean that you do it differently somehow, to make it a krump? And in that case, why not just do a zwerch/schiel? Whether to make a zwerch or a schiel would mostly depend on the direction he pushed you - to the side =>zwerch, down =>schiel (with a schnappen motion).

Also, I don't understand how you could strike from the left with the short edge with crossed hands. That ought to be physically impossible. Are you sure you don't mean the long edge?

Possibly I'm missing something here..

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Postby Bill » 20 Nov 2007 15:31

Hello Everyone. In Forgeng's translation of Meyer, In the 3rd part of the Longsword treatise page 92 at the bottom 1.47r far left side.

" The Crooked Cuts are executed in many ways, for all cuts that are delivered with crossed hands are called crooked cuts; thus the one Squinter is also reckoned among the Crooked cuts. It also doesn't matter whether they are done with the short or long edge, as long as you hold your hands crosswise."

To me that makes sense especially if you look at the 5 "Master", "Hidden", or "Secret" cuts as containing the pieces that make up all proper cuts.

Cheers,
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Postby David Kite » 20 Nov 2007 20:46

Andreas Engström wrote:[
Also, I don't understand how you could strike from the left with the short edge with crossed hands. That ought to be physically impossible. Are you sure you don't mean the long edge?

Possibly I'm missing something here..

-Engström


No, it is quite possible. It can feel quite awkward, especially if you're unused to it. I've never needed it during free-play that I can remember, but I do practice it.

Here are two images from Goliath:

Though admittedly in this image the strike is done from the bind, it still IMO constitutes a short edge cut from the left: http://www.schielhau.org/images/48.jpg

These two are a bit more obvious: http://www.schielhau.org/images/54.jpg and http://www.schielhau.org/images/69.jpg

Hope that helps
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Postby Andreas Engström » 20 Nov 2007 21:59

David Kite wrote:
Andreas Engström wrote:[
Also, I don't understand how you could strike from the left with the short edge with crossed hands. That ought to be physically impossible. Are you sure you don't mean the long edge?

Possibly I'm missing something here..

-Engström


No, it is quite possible. It can feel quite awkward, especially if you're unused to it. I've never needed it during free-play that I can remember, but I do practice it.

Here are two images from Goliath:

Though admittedly in this image the strike is done from the bind, it still IMO constitutes a short edge cut from the left: http://www.schielhau.org/images/48.jpg

These two are a bit more obvious: http://www.schielhau.org/images/54.jpg and http://www.schielhau.org/images/69.jpg

Hope that helps
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OK, badly formulated by me. What I should have added was "in the situation described".
Stevie T wrote:He strikes vertical oberhau, you strike Zornhau, he very strong at bind and pushes you sword off line. You then pull off his blade and strike around his blade to the left with crossed hands and with the short edge.

In that situation it seems extremely awkward and above all unnecessary to strike with the short edge. If you add that the arms should be crossed it becomes more or less impossible.

If you just lift straight up, just cut straight forward with a schielhau with the long edge. If you strike around horizontally, strike a left zwerchau with the long edge. If you are pushed down, schnappen with a schielhaw with the long edge. Why go through horrible contortions to strike with the short edge in that situation?

I agree that there are certainly situations where you use the short edge from the left, but I would never do that with hands crossed, which was the issue here.

Concerning the illustrations:

The first one is IMHO just a thrust, could possibly turn into a schnitt. The short edge down, admittedly, but the hands aren't exactly crossed.

The second one is, I think, still with the long edge although the right hand grip has shifted a little. If you stand in that position with the arms it's almost impossible to use the short edge. Also, the sword has a ring hilt, and since the ring is generally held on the right side and it is upwards in the illustration, that also is a hint that this is most likely a cut with the long edge.

The last illustration is clearly a schielhau with the long edge.

-Engström
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Postby David Kite » 20 Nov 2007 22:44

Andreas Engström wrote:Concerning the illustrations:

The first one is IMHO just a thrust, could possibly turn into a schnitt. The short edge down, admittedly, but the hands aren't exactly crossed.

The second one is, I think, still with the long edge although the right hand grip has shifted a little. If you stand in that position with the arms it's almost impossible to use the short edge. Also, the sword has a ring hilt, and since the ring is generally held on the right side and it is upwards in the illustration, that also is a hint that this is most likely a cut with the long edge.

The last illustration is clearly a schielhau with the long edge.

-Engström


The first image I maintain my position on, but that's okay, since we're all allowed our own opinion :)

The second illustration I see you point with, so I'll keep that one under consideration.

The third illustration :shock: :oops: Good catch. Generally I've got a better eye for detail.

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