How NOT to use a German duelling shield!

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Re: Pavise

Postby Paul » 21 Oct 2007 20:36

admin wrote:
Jeffrey Hull wrote:Do you guys ever actually think about how these things need to move through time and space and the martial dynamics portrayed in fight-books; or do you just consider them like curators comparing static object d'art?


Why are you ranting? And who specifically are you talking at?


Yes... More in particular since I had the pavese of Maximilian I in mind when I posted... :?

But it doesn't take a lot of study to realise that paveses and duelling shields are different. They look different, are constructed differently (spikes vs. gutter) and serve a different purpose.

The fact that there were differences between various paveses (roughly speaking, the small ones and the big ones) does not change that.
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Postby bigdummy » 21 Oct 2007 22:54

Harry wrote:welll wolfgang, this question could be better answered by enzi, but so I do. paveses or "Setztartschen" were special design shield forms from the hussists. the built up complete "wagon-castles" with this shields.


That is very interesting Harry, I wasn't aware the Hussites invented the pavise, that would date it later than I thought. It's quite plausible though the Hussites were certainly remarkable military innovators and either invented or established new uses for many new weapons and equipment.

Love to read more about this if you are aware of any source on it. It's not mentioned in the osprey book I have on the hussites but that isn't saying much ;)

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Re: Pavise

Postby bigdummy » 21 Oct 2007 22:55

admin wrote:
Jeffrey Hull wrote:Do you guys ever actually think about how these things need to move through time and space and the martial dynamics portrayed in fight-books; or do you just consider them like curators comparing static object d'art?


Why are you ranting? And who specifically are you talking at?


1) Because it is his mission as a crusader. 2) All the non believers.
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Postby Harry » 22 Oct 2007 00:42

bigdummy wrote:
Harry wrote:welll wolfgang, this question could be better answered by enzi, but so I do. paveses or "Setztartschen" were special design shield forms from the hussists. the built up complete "wagon-castles" with this shields.


That is very interesting Harry, I wasn't aware the Hussites invented the pavise, that would date it later than I thought. It's quite plausible though the Hussites were certainly remarkable military innovators and either invented or established new uses for many new weapons and equipment.

Love to read more about this if you are aware of any source on it. It's not mentioned in the osprey book I have on the hussites but that isn't saying much ;)

BD


well as inventors you can mention the romans ;-) their scutum is not so different to a pavese.

I will ask enzi if he can share his sources, but I afraid they will be in german.
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Postby bigdummy » 22 Oct 2007 02:06

Well we have to agree to disagree on that one harry, I think a scutum is very different from a pavise.... but then again I've never marched with the legions:)
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Postby Paul » 22 Oct 2007 09:00

Harry wrote:well as inventors you can mention the romans ;-) their scutum is not so different to a pavese.

I will ask enzi if he can share his sources, but I afraid they will be in german.


Are you sure? I think many paveses (perhaps not all) were made of planks, while the scutum was, as I understand it, made of layers.
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Re: Pavise

Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 22 Oct 2007 09:38

Jeffrey Hull wrote:Look at the so-called Bohemian shield of Maximilian I, the lord high Kaiser of the Germans:

Those are actually light battlefield pavises for personal use of armoured men.

In construction, material and mass those pavises were similar to the dueling-pavises, even if design was somewhat different. They certainly were more similar to each other than either was to shields like triangles / heaters, tartschen, umbos, bucklers, etc.

Not every bloody pavise was a freaking church-door requiring a prop and with a crossbowman hiding behind it. I mean get real, dude. If you are in a fight with dueling-pavises, you want the same qualities as the battlefield-pavise for man in fulll harness: something sturdy yet light enough to swing around and maneuver.

Do you guys ever actually think about how these things need to move through time and space and the martial dynamics portrayed in fight-books; or do you just consider them like curators comparing static object d'art?

Okay, so do we have a surviving example of a duelling shield or do we have an periodical explanation how they were build? IT's okay for me to name the duelling shields a (special task) pavese or dueling targe or whatever . But I want some clarification that this is based on some general consent after earnest research and not because some bloody arrogant snob names them like this. And this is exactly what I think of you, due to your way of posting around here. Is that your method Jeffrey? Posting rants so that everybody loses any interest of further discussion and then claiming that all those "non believers" are truely as ignorant as Osama Clements always lamented? Well then, congratulation, here's one self-fulfilling-prophecy that works, because I completely lost the interest to any further discussion with you.

Have a nice day everybody else. I'm off.

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Postby admin » 22 Oct 2007 11:08

There's no need for you to go, Wolfgang - Jeffrey's rant was rather out of place and bizarre, to say the least.
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Postby Stevie T » 22 Oct 2007 11:27

From what I've seen of the pictorial representation of the duelling sheild in Talhoffer I would go with Matts original theory that they were probably thick leather.

I would further to suggest that they were probably produced using a caboli (Spl?) method that would produce an extremly hard and rigid structure.

Also looking at the shapes of the shields themselves it would look like they have been put through some form of moulding process, lots of triangle cross sections which allow easy release from the mould as well as improving structural integritty.

I've only played around with Caboli working leather but you can come up with some exstremely hard and resilient forms.

If made from the belly of a cow/ox and compressed during the moulding process as well a caboli then you would have a seriously hard peice of equipment.

The idea of encasing the points and edges in steel also makes sense as these are likely to take a bit of a battering and "mushroom" up pretty quickly.

I don't think the central pole is for support, more to increase the techniques that can be used with the weapon.

Well that's my ten peneth any way.
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Postby admin » 22 Oct 2007 11:33

Stevie T wrote:caboli (Spl?)


Cuir boulli ('boiled leather' in French).
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Postby Harry » 22 Oct 2007 15:36

bigdummy wrote:Well we have to agree to disagree on that one harry, I think a scutum is very different from a pavise.... but then again I've never marched with the legions:)


of course it is different... but it looks similar :)

the paveses are higher, thicker and so also much heavier than a scutum and most of all.... you use them in a completly different way.


and folks... don't ignore my "smile" in the sentence with the scutum ;)
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Postby Harry » 22 Oct 2007 15:43

admin wrote:
Stevie T wrote:caboli (Spl?)


Cuir boulli ('boiled leather' in French).


I did a lot of testing with boiled leather, but the problem I had, was that it is great for small thing (flask, bottles, bucklers, bracers etc.) but I never was able to make it hard enough when the item was bigger than ~ 50 x 50 cm.

it may be a problem of my poor craftmanship, but for such big areas you have to use very thick leather( 6-8 mm at least, I would say), and this is also quite heavy! maybe heavier than thin poplar wood, linnen and thin leather.
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Re: Pavise

Postby bigdummy » 22 Oct 2007 15:48

Wolfgang Ritter wrote:Have a nice day everybody else. I'm off.

Wolfgang


Don't leave the thread Wolfgang, your opinion is valued.

Don't mind Jeff, he is our pet Stalinist. He reminds us that we are all Running Dog Imperialist Lackeys from time to time.

On occasion he provides useful information instead.

BD
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Postby bigdummy » 22 Oct 2007 15:50

Harry wrote:
bigdummy wrote:Well we have to agree to disagree on that one harry, I think a scutum is very different from a pavise.... but then again I've never marched with the legions:)


of course it is different... but it looks similar :)

the paveses are higher, thicker and so also much heavier than a scutum and most of all.... you use them in a completly different way.


and folks... don't ignore my "smile" in the sentence with the scutum ;)


Of course Harry.

Actually I think though there is a point there, both are primarily used for deflecting missiles, primarily javelins in the case of the scuta. Much higher energy missiles for the pavise which is why it had to be heavier and stronger, and lost it's secondary role as hand-to-hand defense.

BD
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Postby bigdummy » 22 Oct 2007 15:51

Harry wrote:
admin wrote:
Stevie T wrote:caboli (Spl?)


Cuir boulli ('boiled leather' in French).


I did a lot of testing with boiled leather, but the problem I had, was that it is great for small thing (flask, bottles, bucklers, bracers etc.) but I never was able to make it hard enough when the item was bigger than ~ 50 x 50 cm.

it may be a problem of my poor craftmanship, but for such big areas you have to use very thick leather( 6-8 mm at least, I would say), and this is also quite heavy! maybe heavier than thin poplar wood, linnen and thin leather.


Linden wood perhaps?
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Postby Paul » 22 Oct 2007 16:02

Harry wrote:I did a lot of testing with boiled leather, but the problem I had, was that it is great for small thing (flask, bottles, bucklers, bracers etc.) but I never was able to make it hard enough when the item was bigger than ~ 50 x 50 cm.

it may be a problem of my poor craftmanship, but for such big areas you have to use very thick leather( 6-8 mm at least, I would say), and this is also quite heavy! maybe heavier than thin poplar wood, linnen and thin leather.


The way in which the leather was tanned is very important. For instance, dog chew toys are often made of raw hide (untanned leather). That would be a good material to make a shield from.
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Postby admin » 22 Oct 2007 16:17

Cuir boulli has to be made from raw hide.
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Postby Harry » 22 Oct 2007 18:31

Paul wrote:
Harry wrote:I did a lot of testing with boiled leather, but the problem I had, was that it is great for small thing (flask, bottles, bucklers, bracers etc.) but I never was able to make it hard enough when the item was bigger than ~ 50 x 50 cm.

it may be a problem of my poor craftmanship, but for such big areas you have to use very thick leather( 6-8 mm at least, I would say), and this is also quite heavy! maybe heavier than thin poplar wood, linnen and thin leather.


The way in which the leather was tanned is very important. For instance, dog chew toys are often made of raw hide (untanned leather). That would be a good material to make a shield from.


of course paul, I mostly used raw hide, but it worked also not that good.... but I am still on working
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Postby Brewerkel » 22 Oct 2007 20:13

Harry wrote:
admin wrote:
Stevie T wrote:caboli (Spl?)


Cuir boulli ('boiled leather' in French).


I did a lot of testing with boiled leather, but the problem I had, was that it is great for small thing (flask, bottles, bucklers, bracers etc.) but I never was able to make it hard enough when the item was bigger than ~ 50 x 50 cm.

it may be a problem of my poor craftmanship, but for such big areas you have to use very thick leather( 6-8 mm at least, I would say), and this is also quite heavy! maybe heavier than thin poplar wood, linnen and thin leather.


My experience supports Harry's comments about his. Hardened leather is appropriate to smaller projects. Large items made in cuir boilli must be very heavy to retain their rigidity. Laminated construction increases resiliency with surprisingly low overall thickness.
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Postby Brewerkel » 22 Oct 2007 20:19

bigdummy wrote:
Harry wrote:
it may be a problem of my poor craftmanship, but for such big areas you have to use very thick leather( 6-8 mm at least, I would say), and this is also quite heavy! maybe heavier than thin poplar wood, linnen and thin leather.


Linden wood perhaps?


LInden, poplar, limewood.... a variety of names are used for the lightweight soft deciduous wood also described as "shield wood."

In North America, a similar species of poplar tree grows throughout the mid west. Some yards call it poplar, others call it whitewood. Supposedly it has a coarser grain and splits somewhat more easily than European poplar varieties.

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