Jud Lew (c.1450-1455)

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Jud Lew (c.1450-1455)

Postby Stevie T » 13 Aug 2007 16:22

Does anyone know where I can get get a copy of his fetchbuck?
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Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 13 Aug 2007 16:44

Hi,
there is a transcription on the Freifechter homepage here: http://www.freifechter.org/cgi-bin/cowman/content/fechtbuecher/judLew/judLew
It's only the long sword and wrestling after Master Ott, but it's a start.
By the way, it's Fechtbuch :wink:

There are copies from (b&w) scans from the original ms around, but those would cost around 50,- €.

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Postby Stevie T » 14 Aug 2007 09:20

Wolfgang Ritter wrote:Hi,
there is a transcription on the Freifechter homepage here: http://www.freifechter.org/cgi-bin/cowman/content/fechtbuecher/judLew/judLew
It's only the long sword and wrestling after Master Ott, but it's a start.
By the way, it's Fechtbuch :wink:

There are copies from (b&w) scans from the original ms around, but those would cost around 50,- €.

Regards
Wolfgang


Cheers,

Work wont let me look at it so I'll have a look when I get home tonight.

Is it in English or foreign?
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Postby Andreas Engström » 14 Aug 2007 10:23

Stevie T wrote:Is it in English or foreign?

It's just a pure transcription of the original medieval German, no translation or interpretation.

Interesting stuff. Must read more of it. Apparently he holds his Vom Tag above the head, just to mention something that differs from most other manuscripts..

-Engström
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Postby Stevie T » 14 Aug 2007 10:27

Andreas Engström wrote:
Stevie T wrote:Is it in English or foreign?

It's just a pure transcription of the original medieval German, no translation or interpretation.

Interesting stuff. Must read more of it. Apparently he holds his Vom Tag above the head, just to mention something that differs from most other manuscripts..

-Engström


Pootel, I don't read foreign! :evil:
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Postby andreasm » 15 Aug 2007 14:02

Hi all, Hi Steve

to hurt you a lil more.
Ther will come a complet transkription of the Lew text done by Robert from my group http://www.pragmatische-schriftlichkeit.de.
But we also speak nearly no foreign :-) so we do it in german. :D

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Postby Claus Sørensen » 17 Oct 2007 21:27

Hello Andreas!

Interesting stuff. Must read more of it. Apparently he holds his Vom Tag above the head, just to mention something that differs from most other manuscripts..


This is not something new and not something that differs from "most" other manuals! This "vom tag" is e.g. also mentioned in Ringeck, Paulus Kal, Von Speyer, Von Danzig, Meyer, and Sutor,

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Postby Andreas Engström » 18 Oct 2007 16:18

Claus Sørensen wrote:Hello Andreas!

Interesting stuff. Must read more of it. Apparently he holds his Vom Tag above the head, just to mention something that differs from most other manuscripts..


This is not something new and not something that differs from "most" other manuals! This "vom tag" is e.g. also mentioned in Ringeck, Paulus Kal, Von Speyer, Von Danzig, Meyer, and Sutor,

Best wishes

Claus Sørensen

I exporessed myself badly. What I really meant to say was that the "over-the-head"-Vom Tag is in most places mentioned as a variation, not as the basic and only form. But I was wrong, which just goes to show how Ringeck-centric I am. :-)

Ringeck says "Vom tag. Do schick dich also mit: stand mit linckem fuß vor, vnd halt din schwert an diner rechten achseln. Oder halt es mit vßgerechten armen vber din haup. " Von Dantzig says more or less exactly the same.

But I see that Von Speyer and Meyer does the same as Lew and mentions only the "over the head"-Vom Tag. Sutor probably says the same as Meyer, I guess?

I personally use both types of Tag in bouting, but I find the one held at the shoulder a bit more versatile. Possibly simply because I've trained more with it, I should add.

-Engström
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Postby bigdummy » 18 Oct 2007 16:54

Andreas Engström wrote:
I personally use both types of Tag in bouting, but I find the one held at the shoulder a bit more versatile. Possibly simply because I've trained more with it, I should add.

-Engström


My general rule of thumb is the on the shoulder is quicker and over the head is longer ranged. They seem more suitible against different guards your opponents might be in but I can't off hand tell you which correlates to which precisely.
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 18 Oct 2007 21:13

Hello!

Vom Tag! "The one above the head"! When do you use it?

You probably use it all the time, you just don't think about it, if you only focus on the guards as being static!

An example: You stand in right ochs with the hilt near your head(very important). You want to strike a oberhau from the right! You move into the high "vom tag" to make this strike in the "most" fluent way! You just never stand still there and therefore do not consider it a guard! :)

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Poland!

Postby Jeffrey Hull » 19 Oct 2007 19:57

Yes -- I do know where you and everybody else on this planet may peruse such work. Such is located on the continent of Europa, in the nation known as Poland. You may electronically reach four (4) transcriptions / editions and one (1) interpretation of the wrestling of Ott the Jew at the friendly website of ARMA-Poland :arrow:

http://www.arma.lh.pl/zrodla/zrodla.html

(Hint: open your browser's menu for "Find", type in "Ott", and click "Enter".)

I bet those folks would be happy to answer questions sent to them. :D
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Postby Harry » 21 Oct 2007 18:34

I need to check this, but I guess I have a copy of it.

but lets be honest.... take the ringeck, take the danzig, take the kal... than you also have the lew :D
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 22 Oct 2007 08:42

Hello!

Harry wrote:but lets be honest.... take the ringeck, take the danzig, take the kal... than you also have the lew :D


Hmmm, I am not sure why you put Paulus Kal in there with the other manuals you mentioned? I do consider it a totally different kind of "fechtbuch".

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Postby Harry » 22 Oct 2007 15:34

not really, kal copied most of the time the thalhoffer manuals, the rest is nearly the same like everywhere else....
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 22 Oct 2007 19:17

Hello!

Harry wrote:not really, kal copied most of the time the thalhoffer manuals, the rest is nearly the same like everywhere else....


But then again we don't know if he copied Talhoffer? I personally think that they both copied an older manuscript! Talhoffer copied lots of different meisters and manuals and used these in his own manuals!

If he did copy Talhoffer he should "perhaps" have mentioned him in his "line" of meisters!

The reason I asked, why you "grouped" it together with Ringeck and Von Danzig, is that they(If you count out the "few" pictures in VD) only consists of text, and Paulus Kal's book is much more "pictorial".

I personally distinguish between the two kind of manuals! At least until after the 15 th century!

But then again this is perhaps just my "nerd-factor". An occupational injury(Medieval archaeologist) :lol: We do tend to "group" things whenever we can. Who cares, they are all lichtenauer in lineage! :D

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Postby Harry » 22 Oct 2007 23:32

Claus Sørensen wrote:Hello!

Harry wrote:not really, kal copied most of the time the thalhoffer manuals, the rest is nearly the same like everywhere else....


But then again we don't know if he copied Talhoffer? I personally think that they both copied an older manuscript! Talhoffer copied lots of different meisters and manuals and used these in his own manuals!

If he did copy Talhoffer he should "perhaps" have mentioned him in his "line" of meisters!

The reason I asked, why you "grouped" it together with Ringeck and Von Danzig, is that they(If you count out the "few" pictures in VD) only consists of text, and Paulus Kal's book is much more "pictorial".

I personally distinguish between the two kind of manuals! At least until after the 15 th century!

But then again this is perhaps just my "nerd-factor". An occupational injury(Medieval archaeologist) :lol: We do tend to "group" things whenever we can. Who cares, they are all lichtenauer in lineage! :D

Best wishes

Claus Sørensen


well claus, if you take a closer look to the german manuals, there not many inventors... there were a lot of writers and interpretors, exactly like today!

you have liechtenauer for the longsword and ringeck as one his first "disciple". the rest most of the time copied ringecks texts and make just some interpretations. see peter v. danzig or hans von speyer or also lew.

wrestling: everybody took the wrestling of ott and sometimes of liegnitzer.

dagger: most ot the time.... liegnitzer

singlesword: von hundtsfeld

halfsword also von hundtsfeld

some fencingteachers were so honest and inform the pupils or readers from whom the techniques are, like peter von danzig or hans von speyer. some did not, like lew (he mentioned it in the beginning, but then he said, that this is his art).

a sidepostion is hans thalhoffer who developped his own tradition... in his first manual from 1443 he also copies the liechtenauer phrases and completelly put the ott-ringkunst in his manual he also mentioned that! also the dagger is from liegnitzer.

in his later manual, you find a development of this first book. in later manuals you will find such exotic things like sword/buckler with a dagger in the bucklerhand.

Image
picture from 1467 manual

wrestling and dagger are still the same, but the texts are a little bit different. in the 1443 manual he copied otts texts completly.



I totally agree if you say the kal-book is something special! because it is something very special, mainly because of his list of fencing masters in the beginning of the book (did you mention the he left thallhoffer? :) I wonder why!! :D )

sooo and at last.... for stevie T. I have only a transcription of the lew-manual and this transcription is of course in gernan. I you want to have it, send me a PM with your mail-addy.
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"Take away all his weapons and than kick him in the ass" - Free Translation from the Viennese Gladiatoria
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 23 Oct 2007 10:32

Hello Harry!

I do believe that we agree with eachother!

Yes there are a lot of writers and interpretators and not so many with new "inventions".

But I am sure that we agree on the importance of these comments/interpretations like in Ringeck and VD. :)

And as you say if you've got both Ringeck and VD, there really isn't anything new in Lew. :wink:

There really wasn't anything else in my post than to say that I distinguish between the two kind of manuals, the textual/commeting ones, and the pictorial ones! At least until after the 15 th century!

As to Talhoffer. There is a nice little model in P. Hils book where Talhoffers different manuals and what they contain are shown and compared. I am sure you know of P.Hils' book!
What I do consider interesting is in the 1459 Thott-manual, that also contains the lichtenauer verses(variations of them) but at the same time Talhoffer throws in some verses of his own. New verses, not commentaries!

Interesting and rare! 8)

(did you mention the he left thallhoffer? I wonder why!! )


Yes well this is something that people can speculate about and debate for the rest of eternity if no new sources appear that explains their relationship or the lack of it! :wink:

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Postby Harry » 23 Oct 2007 11:15

hi claus,

of course I know the hils book and it is H.P. Hils (Hans Peter).

What I do consider interesting is in the 1459 Thott-manual, that also contains the lichtenauer verses(variations of them) but at the same time Talhoffer throws in some verses of his own. New verses, not commentaries!


yes absolutly! thats why I call thallhoffer a liechtenauer developer and not interpreter.
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"Take away all his weapons and than kick him in the ass" - Free Translation from the Viennese Gladiatoria
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Postby Claus Sørensen » 23 Oct 2007 11:44

and it is H.P. Hils


Of course, My mistake! Forgot the "H" :)

I am always interested in hearing what people think about Talhoffer and his manuals! I am currently doing my master thesis on the Thott manual!

But then again the discussion on Ars Gladii's forum got a bit long and with too many speculations! :wink:

Thanks for the debate/discussion! :)

Best wishes

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Postby Harry » 23 Oct 2007 13:18

no problem, finally we have a german section here! :D there I have at least a basic knowledge. :)

and please, when you have finished your work, can I read it? (if it is in german or english, my danish is quite crappy)
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