Question on Meyer's parts of the fight

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Postby bigdummy » 25 Jun 2007 19:40

I would add is that one of the big problems I see, is that people want to fight a certain way, either outside, or close-in, or in ringen, or at the bind. If they try to force this, they will be killed. I have this problem myself of wanting to rush in all the time to krieg, which is a bad habit from fist fights. Lenny helps teach me not to try to do that when I really shouldn't.

When I see sparring from groups where both sides seem to be agreeing to fight at a certain distance, either on the outside or in the bind, I think thats detrimental to training, because you are going to re-inforce a very bad habit. As Jake said, the trickiest part of longsword IMHO is the zufechten or entry. Thats what you need to drill and learn from sparring the most. The rest is easy with a little practice :)

Thats why I'm so delighted when I pull off a half-sword gambit or a disarm in sparring, because the guys I'm sparring with don't cooperate.

BD
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Postby bigdummy » 25 Jun 2007 19:43

zarlor wrote:in most European cultures of the time, and perhaps especially in those that took heavily to codifying concepts of honor that it was very important to be capable of showing traits that indicated honor, or at least assiduously avoided acts that might appear, if not inherently dishonorable, might be considered to provide opportunity for damage to one's reputation .


I think you have done some interesting research into this Lenny. But I think form and function are always closely linked, at least in the 15th century. It seems to me that your longsword fight has improved immensely since you have incorporated more closing techniques, going soft at the bind and moving in etc. You were always a dangerous opponent but I think you are much more challenging now - closer krieg range used to be more your weak spot but not any more.. you and Skip have both developed much more balanced longsword repetoires, IMO. I'm catching up, still a little behind :)

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Postby Rakkasan » 25 Jun 2007 22:19

Angel S. wrote:Can I interest you in beating the crap out of me one day till I get it right? I think it would do me good to fight someone of the "appropriate" size who knows what they're doing. Keep me posted if you do any events in Europe.


I would love to come and beat the crap out of you, Angel.

Um, that came out wrong...

What I mean is, I hope to be in Dijon in 2009 or 2010. Can't do it sooner, as I'll likely be over in the sandbox for the two years prior to that.

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Postby Angel S. » 26 Jun 2007 01:42

Rakkasan wrote:
Angel S. wrote:Can I interest you in beating the crap out of me one day till I get it right? I think it would do me good to fight someone of the "appropriate" size who knows what they're doing. Keep me posted if you do any events in Europe.


I would love to come and beat the crap out of you, Angel.

Um, that came out wrong...

What I mean is, I hope to be in Dijon in 2009 or 2010. Can't do it sooner, as I'll likely be over in the sandbox for the two years prior to that.

Jake


:lol: No worries

You take care over in the sandbox ya hear. I'll be making it to Florida about once or twice a year so maybe at one of the Florida ARMA events. Mike C. & John F. will keep me posted on all those details.
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Postby MugginsToadwort » 26 Jun 2007 09:21

bigdummy wrote:I would add is that one of the big problems I see, is that people want to fight a certain way, either outside, or close-in, or in ringen, or at the bind. If they try to force this, they will be killed. I have this problem myself of wanting to rush in all the time to krieg, which is a bad habit from fist fights. Lenny helps teach me not to try to do that when I really shouldn't.

When I see sparring from groups where both sides seem to be agreeing to fight at a certain distance, either on the outside or in the bind, I think thats detrimental to training, because you are going to re-inforce a very bad habit. As Jake said, the trickiest part of longsword IMHO is the zufechten or entry. Thats what you need to drill and learn from sparring the most. The rest is easy with a little practice :)

Thats why I'm so delighted when I pull off a half-sword gambit or a disarm in sparring, because the guys I'm sparring with don't cooperate.

BD


I'd just like to add to this.

The only safe distance is miles apart- Run Fu is your friend.

In a fight, the object is to kill the opponent, one shot no problem. The idea is not to fight in close distance, or in krieg, or anything else- every blow you swing is intended to kill the opponent, and you put all your focus into that. If that is countered, then doing something else- do not go in saying, "he will counter this this way, so I do this in return." If you can hit him the first time, do so.

Despite the apparent heavy emphasis on the bind in the German teaching scripts, this is not an exhortation to fight from the bind or seek it, but a solution to a common problem. The core of the syllabus, including that in Meyer, is to hit with the meisterhaue without worrying about the bind. Same way as I spend three lectures dealing with an insignificant point in a mathematical problem- I don't expect you to encounter the situation, but if it does arise, this is how to deal with it. This is where Meyer and Mair's sequences are so useful- they show you how things should run in a fight.

This extends to practice- always strive to hit the opponent properly (i.e. five inches of steel embedded in the skull). If you train to take his blade then do something else, you tend to do it in combat. Always try to strike your partner's head in a drill- it allows him to do the counter properly, and you get the motion required right each time.

And yes, too many people play at sparring....

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Postby Marinus Ferreira » 04 Jul 2007 05:35

Being a student of James's, I have a very similar idea of what is happening in the respective parts of the fight. I'd like to add that in my interpretation the Krieg starts the moment blades touch and ends the moment that there is no more bind or clinch, that is, if you strike away out of the bind so that the blades don't contact and aren't intended to, then you are in the Abzug and should behave in that way, ie shoot-and-scoot. This means that (almost all) deception is done in the Zufechten, including the 'failer' where you hit to intentionally fall short, or the 'flowing off' where you switch to attacking another opening before the opponent's parry touches your attack. The same goes for a lot of nachreisen, like Ringeck's second Nachreisen, and a lot of pressing hands. If you want to maximise your work in the Zufechten I recommend you study these three groups of technique (there is a lot of crossover between nachreisen and pressing hands).

I also want to add my support to those who say that you shouldn't be shy of the Krieg because you are smaller than your opponents. Firstly, ringen is about leverage, not strength, and you have a notable leverage advantage in close over larger opponents. Also, there is a lot of work that can be done with the point and the edge inside your opponent's reach before you get to wrestling, Durchwechseln, Oberlaufern and its counters, Durchlaufern and its counters, and so on.
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Postby Marinus Ferreira » 04 Jul 2007 10:29

Let me quickly correct myself - when I said that nachreisen and pressing hands/handtrucken is sometimes a part of Zufechten, I was being imprecise. I meant that nachreisen/handtrucken is often started in the Zufechten and is an entry from the Zufechten into the Krieg, often a decisive one. A good example of this is when you see your opponent raising his weapon to start an Oberhau and then you rush at him and put your long edge on his forearm, pressing him backwards - that is a move from the Zufechten into the Krieg giving you a decisive advantage in the Krieg. I don't want to give the impression that I think it is possible to strike your opponent without entering the Krieg.
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Postby Rakkasan » 04 Jul 2007 18:17

The primary issue with that interpretation of Krieg and Abzug is that most all of the techniques you just mentioned are explicitly described by Meyer as part of Krieg.

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Postby MugginsToadwort » 05 Jul 2007 12:00

Marinus Ferreira wrote:Being a student of James's, I have a very similar idea of what is happening in the respective parts of the fight. I'd like to add that in my interpretation the Krieg starts the moment blades touch and ends the moment that there is no more bind or clinch, that is, if you strike away out of the bind so that the blades don't contact and aren't intended to, then you are in the Abzug and should behave in that way, ie shoot-and-scoot. This means that (almost all) deception is done in the Zufechten, including the 'failer' where you hit to intentionally fall short, or the 'flowing off' where you switch to attacking another opening before the opponent's parry touches your attack. The same goes for a lot of nachreisen, like Ringeck's second Nachreisen, and a lot of pressing hands. If you want to maximise your work in the Zufechten I recommend you study these three groups of technique (there is a lot of crossover between nachreisen and pressing hands).

.


Being no longer in close proximity to you, I shall disclaim all responsibility for this interpretation! Just wait till I get to New Zealand, you....!

More seriously, you should realise that a lot of actions in Meyer's Handarbeit chapter involve some serious lack of blade contact. Rounds and double rounds, suppressing and many of the other actions are not done from the bind. Strictly speaking, flowing off, twitching, slices, and failing are all handarbeit- they are done within range of the opponent. If you are in the Zufechten, you are by definition out of range (unless you've screwed up). Nachreisen also fall into this category most of the time, since you initiate the strike from within range. Same goes for durchwechseln and other actions, which involve actions within range of the opponent- one has to see what the opponent does as you come into range, no matter what your entry, before committing to these actions.

Strictly speaking, the actual hitting of the opponent is also part of the Handarbeit....

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Postby Jeff Gentry » 05 Jul 2007 23:37

Angel

Have you been talking to Mike Cartier? :lol:

Zufechten is the entry. It's where you get close enough to hit him. It's when you get inside. It's the hard part, in my opinion. Or, rather, breaking from zufechten into krieg is the hard part. But the whole point of zufechten is to break into krieg. After all, look at the words... zu (to) fechten (fighting).

Krieg is the part where you hit the other guy, and try not to get hit. It's where your winding, snipping, etc., happens. Ringen is only a part of it, really, and probably not a key one at your size (of course that could go both ways...). If you want to hit the guy with more than the very tip as you take a passing step, you'll be attacking him from krieg. As someone (Fab?) said before, this is where you do all your fighting, whether it's at a little longer, safer distance, or right up in his face.

Abzug is the "get the hell out" phase. Unless you're dead, you get to do this every time. I don't think there's many questions on that.




I do agree with much of what Jake say's about phase's of a fight, The thing i see is in kreig thing's happen so fast and feeling at the sword become's vitaly important, This is where i feel most people run into problem's.

Myself and Jake had a short discussion about a month ago about this very subject I also had a discussion with Mike Cartier (ARMA Florida) about his take on this.

This is not realy exclusive to Meyer, Doebringer and Ringeck also discuss zufecten, kreig, and abzug.

Someone mentioned Ringeck saying not to rush into Kreig the saying is (praphrase) "He who rush's to war above will be humilated below" when i read this in the context of what he was saying, he was talking about not being foolhardy and just rushing in, I thought he was saying to control the distance and go to kreig at the best time for you and if your opponent stay's high you can go to the lower opening's which are usualy farther away and you need to close to kreig to strike them.

everything has a place and everything need's to be in it's place, remember this is a system.

Just my 2 cent's worth.

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