Sigmund Ringeck's "Knightly Art of the Longsword"

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Sigmund Ringeck's "Knightly Art of the Longsword"

Postby archangel » 10 Jun 2007 00:52

Anyone got this book by Paladin press.Whats it like?
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Postby admin » 10 Jun 2007 02:33

There are two published interpretations of Ringeck - Tobler's and Lindholm & Svard's.The Paladin one is the latter. Both have different strengths and weaknesses, as interpretations, I think. Probably both sets of people should have not rushed to publish so much.
If you are after a training guide to read then Guy Windsor's Swordsman's Companion is supposed to be quite good. If you are after a published translation and reproduction of a medieval treatise then go for Porzio and Mele's Vadi book.
Have a look at this site:
http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com/

Having said that, if you are after translations then some of the best ones are online. I'd always recommend going straight to the original material rather than someone else's interpretation.
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Postby Rakkasan » 10 Jun 2007 02:50

The Paladin book (the one you're asking about) has drawings instead of photos, footwork diagrams, and the original German text for comparison to the translation. I find it's easier to work with than the Tobler, though I actually like a few things about the Tobler version better.

It's a toss up, really. There's a lot to be gained from both, there's a lot in both that I disagree with.

Other than that, I agree with Matt (admin).

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Postby Herbert » 10 Jun 2007 08:27

None the two books are perfect but then which book is? I strongly dislike Tobler for various reasons. I would rather go for the Svard & Lindholm book. Although it has quite some mistakes in it the book is much clearer and easier to work with. I also find it closer to the techniques of the original than Toblers.

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Postby bigdummy » 10 Jun 2007 13:41

I have them both and found them both very useful. Probably because I'm far more stupid than you should be to study HEMA and haven't really had the time to try to decipher translations of the original texts very much. (I'm also too lazy to study HEMA)

I don't share the contempt many have for interpreted manuals in general, and I think both of these are actually very good. Despite that there are things in both books which I can see don't look quite right to me, and I don't follow them blindly. HEMA is in, if not it's infancy, certainly a stage where many things are being corrected and better understood all the time, so interpretations are always evolving right now, even of some basic things. So these books may not stand the test of time any more than some of the earlier HEMA guides did, but for right now I think they can really help you get up to speed and see some of this stuff actually working for you in a relatively short time.

The Lindholm book is good because it actually includes a translation on each page, which is helpful, though it does not have the original art only their interpretation.

I found the Tobler book was very useful in presenting numerous drills, many of which we found very useful in learning some of the more advanced techniques. He also has a decision tree in there which is an effective way to get the idea across of how to actually apply your repetoire of attacks and counters to combat.

I reccomend both of them. I think they are both good for beginner to intermediate HEMA scholars. If you are in a small group of friends, you can do the drills together and practice the various counters. When you run into things which don't seem to work spectacularly well, you can go look at translations
(and the illustrations) online and decide for yourself how it should really be implemented.

I think these books are the next best thing to having your own local instructor who can teach things to you. Get both of these and if possible, go to a workshop or seminar, and I think you'll be well on your way to learning.

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Postby Anders Linnard » 10 Jun 2007 14:45

bigdummy wrote:I have them both and found them both very useful. Probably because I'm far more stupid than you should be to study HEMA and haven't really had the time to try to decipher translations of the original texts very much. (I'm also too lazy to study HEMA)

I don't share the contempt many have for interpreted manuals in general, and I think both of these are actually very good. Despite that there are things in both books which I can see don't look quite right to me, and I don't follow them blindly. HEMA is in, if not it's infancy, certainly a stage where many things are being corrected and better understood all the time, so interpretations are always evolving right now, even of some basic things. So these books may not stand the test of time any more than some of the earlier HEMA guides did, but for right now I think they can really help you get up to speed and see some of this stuff actually working for you in a relatively short time.

The Lindholm book is good because it actually includes a translation on each page, which is helpful, though it does not have the original art only their interpretation.

I found the Tobler book was very useful in presenting numerous drills, many of which we found very useful in learning some of the more advanced techniques. He also has a decision tree in there which is an effective way to get the idea across of how to actually apply your repetoire of attacks and counters to combat.

I reccomend both of them. I think they are both good for beginner to intermediate HEMA scholars. If you are in a small group of friends, you can do the drills together and practice the various counters. When you run into things which don't seem to work spectacularly well, you can go look at translations
(and the illustrations) online and decide for yourself how it should really be implemented.

I think these books are the next best thing to having your own local instructor who can teach things to you. Get both of these and if possible, go to a workshop or seminar, and I think you'll be well on your way to learning.

BD


There are two Tobler books. The one with the charts and drills is a mix of the german tradition, but there is a lot of Ringeck in there. The other is Ringecks' manuscript. That one I don't like so much. It is good because it has all of the manuscript, unlike David's book that s divided in to two separate books, but I don't like that the original text isn't there. There are some odd translations in both his and David's book, at times due to misunderstandings of the techniques. Since the texts are complex or lacking in information, sometimes they have both chosen to make an understandable translation to fit an interpretation, rather than to leave the text harder to understand.

I think interpretations are generally good. There are strange things in both books, but I find Tobler's book a bit lacking in body mechanics. It is hard to show in photos, but photos often give you an impression of truth. Illustrations is better in that way, they are less authoritative. But as long as you don't treat any interpretation as religion, I think you will have great use of both. But do keep an eye on the original text.

Oh, btw, there are no illustrations in Ringeck.
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Postby bigdummy » 10 Jun 2007 14:57

Anders Linnard wrote:There are two Tobler books. The one with the charts and drills is a mix of the german tradition, but there is a lot of Ringeck in there. The other is Ringecks' manuscript. That one I don't like so much.


Yeah, I should have mentioned that. I found his first book personally almost totally useless for me. I think it was mainly the photos, the costumes they were wearing and whatnot, which totally threw me off. I know that's horribly superficial but every time I opened that book with the plan to read it for a few ours, i found myself wandering away to do ... anything else after like five minutes. For some reason the presentation of the second book, while similar in some ways, seemed to be totally accessable to me. A the audience is fickle alas...

I think interpretations are generally good. There are strange things in both books, but I find Tobler's book a bit lacking in body mechanics. It is hard to show in photos, but photos often give you an impression of truth. Illustrations is better in that way, they are less authoritative. But as long as you don't treat any interpretation as religion, I think you will have great use of both. But do keep an eye on the original text.

Oh, btw, there are no illustrations in Ringeck.


Agreed on all points... When I mentioned looking at Illustrations online, I mean from the Lichtenauer tradition generally, we used Meyer alot, even Tallhoffer, I know it's not identical by any means but when we were stuck on something or had questions on their interpretation of some move, that was where we started. Asking questions on the forums often helped a lot too...

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Postby Jeffrey Hull » 11 Jun 2007 01:34

Yes, it is a really good book. Why? Because you get a workable interpretation of Ringeck's unarmoured longsword fighting from a real martial artist.
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Postby Angantyr » 11 Jun 2007 11:17

I got it, I work out of it, and I like it. But as with most books and interpretations you have to think for yourself, I do not agree with everything being shown, but since there's text and not pictures in the original I generally do not look to much at the interpretation. ;)
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Postby Axel » 25 Jul 2007 17:18

I have them both aswell, and I see one good thing especially about them each.

Toblers book has the flow schemes, wich helps to get a good picture of the system. I he does this then do that, then that etc.

Lindholm and Svärd are very clear on what is their interpretation, what is their translation and what is the original text (The original is mostly on the upper right hand side, the translation on the upper left and the interpretation in italic close to the pictures), this helps me alot in working with the book, while in Toblers book it is hard sometimes (since the original text isnt there) to know what specific parts are interpretation and what is more or less obvious from the original text.

Both books are a few years old, and I think both authors have changed their interpretations somewhat now, which is another good reason to get Lindholms book, as you still have the translated and oroginal text there.
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Postby Anders Linnard » 25 Jul 2007 20:26

Axel wrote:I have them both aswell, and I see one good thing especially about them each.

Toblers book has the flow schemes, wich helps to get a good picture of the system. I he does this then do that, then that etc.

Lindholm and Svärd are very clear on what is their interpretation, what is their translation and what is the original text (The original is mostly on the upper right hand side, the translation on the upper left and the interpretation in italic close to the pictures), this helps me alot in working with the book, while in Toblers book it is hard sometimes (since the original text isnt there) to know what specific parts are interpretation and what is more or less obvious from the original text.

Both books are a few years old, and I think both authors have changed their interpretations somewhat now, which is another good reason to get Lindholms book, as you still have the translated and oroginal text there.


There are two Tobler books. One based on Ringeck's manuscript and one is an introduction for beginners. You are talking about the introduction.

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Postby Axel » 26 Jul 2007 17:16

oh yeah, forgot that, Im talking about the synthesis one, not the one with only ringeck.
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Postby AdamR » 27 Jul 2007 23:10

I'd recommend it. But not as much as I'd recommend learning from a person and using a book only as a reference material. :)

Everyone's interpretation is different - some markedly so - the trouble with interpretive books is you have to interpret someones interpretation! :shock:
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Postby Paul B » 15 Oct 2007 15:25

As an aside, Id like to see someone who trained using only the reference material and with no prior martial arts experience came up with.
Probably a load of cack, to be fair, but interesting cack.
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Stevie T » 15 Oct 2007 15:31

Paul B wrote:As an aside, Id like to see someone who trained using only the reference material and with no prior martial arts experience came up with.
Probably a load of cack, to be fair, but interesting cack.



You ever read any of my posts?

I used Toblers book as a basis of access to the original text in translation. The pics were occasionally useful but I rarely read his interpretations and disagree with some of the stuff he does in the book.

As to MA experience, I have no MA experience.

I do however have a lot of re-enactment experience at waving a sword around (nearly 20years).

Generally what I come up with seems to be a lot of cack, though I have managed to figure out the odd bit for myself.

After that I did a couple of day training sessions with Danny of EHCG/KDF. Forgotten most of it, but I suppose it's all in there somewhere.
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Postby Paul B » 15 Oct 2007 16:06

Stevie T wrote:
Paul B wrote:As an aside, Id like to see someone who trained using only the reference material and with no prior martial arts experience came up with.
Probably a load of cack, to be fair, but interesting cack.



You ever read any of my posts?

I used Toblers book as a basis of access to the original text in translation. The pics were occasionally useful but I rarely read his interpretations and disagree with some of the stuff he does in the book.

As to MA experience, I have no MA experience.

I do however have a lot of re-enactment experience at waving a sword around (nearly 20years).

Generally what I come up with seems to be a lot of cack, though I have managed to figure out the odd bit for myself.

After that I did a couple of day training sessions with Danny of EHCG/KDF. Forgotten most of it, but I suppose it's all in there somewhere.


I guess I was looking more for the "boy in a bubble" of the HEMA world. You have been tainted. Go now, impure one.
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Stevie T » 15 Oct 2007 16:14

Paul B wrote:I guess I was looking more for the "boy in a bubble" of the HEMA world. You have been tainted. Go now, impure one.


I might actually have a whole group of them.

It turns out all this time I've been trying to set up a group or find one local to play and there is actually a group in Hartlepool where I work that train everyweek.

From what I've heard they don't frequent any forum sites and have been training fro the past few years.

They started off with I.33, at which time there were no interpretations available.

I should hopefully make contact in the next month aand see what they get up to.
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Postby Paul B » 15 Oct 2007 16:51

you may have to construct some sort of hide to avoid contamination. I suggest a monkey suit. With ropes on it.
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Harry » 17 Oct 2007 21:48

I completely agree with herbert, I have both books, christian's book is nice, but has some really hard mistakes, but the book is old and it made it's standard years ago.

the book from david lindholm is also nice with less mistakes, nice drawings and step by step modes.

as long as I won't write a book.... there will be no perfect ringeck book! :D :D :D :D :D *duckandcoverandstealingawayfastly*
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