Stevie says Ochs and Pflug = Finestra and Breve

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Postby Angel S. » 11 Jun 2007 18:59

Wolfgang Ritter wrote:Hello Jeffrey,
I am sorry, but I'll stick to my conclusion that Ochs in Liechtenauer tradition is held with the edges in a horizontal - or quite horizontal with a slight angle - and not vertical way, with the false edge in right Ochs pointing towards the face.

I don't have access to Wilhalm so I can't comment on him, but I am sure about von Danzig, Kal and the Solothurner manuscript, they don't show a "vertical" Ochs. Nor does for example Meyer, who is often cited by the "vertical" fraction. I did as well, but after examining it especially for that reason during the same discussion in other circumstances, I changed my mind.

Regards
Wolfgang


I'm a bit confused about the discussion but in regards to Meyer here's how I see ochs...
I've always held ochs with a slight angle depending on where I'm at and what I'm gonna do. Vertical if I'm going into ochs from a underhau cut and angled vertical if I'm gonna thrust.

Suggestions welcomed.

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Last edited by Angel S. on 11 Jun 2007 19:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Angel S. » 11 Jun 2007 19:04

Rakkasan wrote:I'm pretty firmly of the school that the position of Ochs has a lot more to do with use and body mechanics than edge alignment. We're getting wrapped around the axle over a position that can be horizontal, vertical, or diagonal based on use. Since there *are* uses for all three of those, as you recover from cuts, or wind, or whatever, and since Liechtenauer doesn't have two or three separate guards there, I think it's a pretty safe thing to say that they're all Ochs.

You shouldn't be standing still in it anyway.

Jake


8) That makes total sense.
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Postby admin » 11 Jun 2007 23:07

Well, putting the issue of angle to one side, Fenestra is not held above the head and not with the thumb on the flat, which it seems to me that Ochs generally is.

As for not standing still in it, well Fiore recommends it as a guard to 'wait' in in both his longsword and spear sections.
Also bear in mind that Fiore doesn't show winding into Fenestra or an Ochs-like position. Not saying whether he did it or not, but he didn't show it, whereas the Liechtenauer-based treatises have tons of windings into an Ochs-like position shown and described.
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Postby Anders Linnard » 12 Jun 2007 07:11

admin wrote:Well, putting the issue of angle to one side, Fenestra is not held above the head and not with the thumb on the flat, which it seems to me that Ochs generally is.

As for not standing still in it, well Fiore recommends it as a guard to 'wait' in in both his longsword and spear sections.
Also bear in mind that Fiore doesn't show winding into Fenestra or an Ochs-like position. Not saying whether he did it or not, but he didn't show it, whereas the Liechtenauer-based treatises have tons of windings into an Ochs-like position shown and described.


Yeah, I agree. It's basically the same problem as consensus in the German school. We can try to see similarities between German and Italian, but that does not mean things look exactly the same or are used in the same way.

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Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 12 Jun 2007 13:44

Hello,
well I wrote about holding Ochs in a horizontal way or slightly angled. Maybe I should have made this clearer.
Anyway, that's the way I hold it. And that's the way that makes the most sense for me both regarding the manuscripts as well as the practical actions.

Ringeck doesn't mention the edge alignment at all. But that's Sigmund, he is pretty laconic sometimes...

von Danzig:
Die erst hůtt ist | und haist der ochs | do schick dich also mit | Stee mit dem lincken fuess vor und halt dein swert neben deiner rechten seitten mit dem gehültz vor dem haubt das dein dawmen under dem swert sey | und heng ÿm den ort gegen dem gesicht


The important part is "that your thumb be under your sword", that's a clear sign for a horizontal or almost horizontal edge position, at least when we agree, that one should put the thumb on the flat.

Lew actually says to put the edge in a horizontal position (again: or slightly angled):

tem In den och~en schick dich also Stee mit dem lincken fu~ f~r und halt dein swert zu deiner rechten seitten mit dem geh~ltz f~r und halt dein swert zu deiner rechten seitten mit dem gehultz f~r dass haubt da~ die kurtz sneide gegen dir stee und halt Im den ort also gegen dem gesichte etc.


".....that the false (short) edge stands against you...."

Hans von Speyer follows exactly Lew in the description.

Joachim Meyer is a bit different as he doesn't mention the thumb nor the edge position. But here we have the "problem" that Meyer is not in a strict Liechtenauer lineage, there a lot of alterations to the older Liechtanuer stuff.

Paulus Kal and the Solothurner Fechtbuch (which seems to be a copy of the earlier Kal manuscript) and Talhoffer seem to show a vertical edge alignment in the illustrations. But there we have a problem that Fabrice explained a bit earlier: the possibility of illustrational flaws and errors. Kal has some errors, where he shows the wrong hand at the pommel (both his Alber and vom Tag show the left hand on the cross and the right hand on pommel), so it is possible, that it is just an unprecise illustration for Ochs. I do believe this to be the case, as he shows the thumb on the flat; putting the thumb on the flat makes no sense - or at least is of no advantage - when holding the blade vertical.

It is true of course, that guards are starting, ending and transitional positions.
Now, it should be no problem at all to perform an Oberhau starting from Ochs with the edges horzontal (or slightly angled) you have to turn the wrist to strike anyway, so it's no significant difference at all.
If (I am talking solely about Liechtenauer tradition and Joachim Meyer, as I don't know enough about Fiore dei Liberi, PHMair and Wilhalm) I wind into Ochs, I strongly advocate to wind into a position with the edges in a slight angle or horizontal position, thus being in a very strong and stable position concerning the body mechanics and a resulting in a much stronger binding position against the opponents blade. Roland Warzecha had a convincing demonstrated on that issue in Dijon during his body mechanics workshop and I have made the same experience: you have a lot more control and a better leverage/pressure if you bind (your) edge against (his) flat. This is the right position to put pressure in your winding action.
So, that leaves a vertical position for rthe Unterhau and a slightly "more-angled-towards-being-vertical", when I thrust; although even then a thrust in horizontal alignment works as well.

It is of course true as well, that guards shouldn't be hold as static postions, they should be used for cover, strikes, winding moves, thrust etc. i.e. guards are for performance of actions during a fight. Therefore there may be different positions for one guard.
And of course we have some variations, for example concerning vom Tag.
But from my experiences in teaching beginners, I can state that it is way better to learn that there are variations, but then try to stick to one position first and alter them if needed, once you're more familiar with the system in general.
The beginners I have been teaching so far were better suited with that method.

And the manuscripts explain but one position. I strongly believe that if I am trying to reconstruct HEMA, I should stay as close to the original manuscript as possible.

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Postby Anders Linnard » 12 Jun 2007 14:13

Wolfgang Ritter wrote:And of course we have some variations, for example concerning vom Tag.
But from my experiences in teaching beginners, I can state that it is way better to learn that there are variations, but then try to stick to one position first and alter them if needed, once you're more familiar with the system in general.
The beginners I have been teaching so far were better suited with that method.


Well put. This is what it boils down to. Explain that there are few real certainties. But train with the things that are most likely and expand the horizon on the way.

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