Stevie says Ochs and Pflug = Finestra and Breve

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Postby admin » 01 Jun 2007 16:17

Yes, something like that. But in one place Fiore also tells you to wait in it for the opponent to attack.
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Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 01 Jun 2007 18:20

There is in fact NO, I repeat NO manual in Liechtenauer Tradition describing Ochs with the blade in vertical direction, i.e right Ochs with true edge up and false edge downwards.
Even Joachim Meyer only appears as being vertical. If you examine the illustrations closely, you'll see, that the edge are hold in a slight angle to the outside (true edge) and towards the head (false edge) vice verca with left Ochs. It's in fact not truely horizontal but more in a slight angle, but it is definetely not vertical.
But more important is, that Ochs is held with the cross slighlty in font of the face and ABOVE the head. The latter is essential especially for Zwerchhau, thus avoiding being cut to the fingers while chopping of his head....

There is better body-mechanical stability and a better blade control, because the position of wrist and hand differ.

The same with Pflug.
Stevie, you described the winding from one Pflug to the other. Now try to exercise winding from right to left against e strong bind. You will find, that it definetely works a lot easier when you turn the blade, bringing the true edge up while moving to left Pflug. It's again better body mechanics. There are some illustrations IIRC showing left Ochs with the true edge downwards, but I don't like it. The main and most prominent treatises liek von Danzig and Ringeck describe left Pflug with true edge up.

It's okay to train with a book like Toblers Secrets or with David Lindholm, Guy Windsor or whoever's pubklishing something on the subject.. But that should be just supplementary purpose. Try to work from the original manuscript first, get some ideas from interpretational stuff like Tobler and then go back and check the original source again....with each and every translation (and I as a german have to translate the old german language into high modern german as well sometimes) you put some interpretation into the words. Therefore you have to check and recheck as often as possible.

I think your approach to find similarities between different systems like Fiore and Liechtenauer very interesting, but the premise should be, that you are capable of both systems in their own right and THEN try to compare them.

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Postby Stevie T » 02 Jun 2007 10:11

Cheers Wolfgang, one of my main problems is that I "train" on my own, learning how anything works while strong at the bind is almost impossible.

All your coments have been extremely helpful, I do try to interpret Toblers translation of Ringeck's words rather than just using his interpretation.

The holding the blade a slight angle makes a lot of sense and feels much more comfortable while the hands a higher and further forward.

I have learnt so much from this it's worth the embarrasing title and accusations of arrogance.

Cheers all
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Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 05 Jun 2007 14:32

Stevie T wrote:Cheers Wolfgang, one of my main problems is that I "train" on my own, learning how anything works while strong at the bind is almost impossible.

All your coments have been extremely helpful, I do try to interpret Toblers translation of Ringeck's words rather than just using his interpretation.

The holding the blade a slight angle makes a lot of sense and feels much more comfortable while the hands a higher and further forward.

I have learnt so much from this it's worth the embarrasing title and accusations of arrogance.

Cheers all

I see, that IS a problem! Go and get yourself a fencing partner because otherwise it will be disappointing from a certain level on. Oh and to get some harsh comments in this forum is more like a "welcome to the club, you arrogant twat, have a drink and stfu, for Christ's sake"...

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Postby admin » 05 Jun 2007 15:37

That's true. :lol:
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Postby Tarim » 07 Jun 2007 14:46

Hmm, interesting topic, this is!

We used to be inclined to compare the guards from different traditions to find rough similarities and similar uses. But not really daring to venture too much into intepreting manuscripts myself (fearing easily made wrong assumptions), I never really got to finding fundamental differences.

An interesting discussion arises from fiore's "posta de vera finestra", though. Over the years I've seen a couple of interpretations. The thing we were tought in the beginning was that it was held with the blade along the forehead, so you'd peak under the blade as if through a window.
Then I saw interpretations being more close to the German Ochs. But you say it's even different.
What would be the essential difference in position and use between finestra and the (reversed) Ochs? And what do you think about the position of the blade parallel to the forehead?

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Postby admin » 07 Jun 2007 17:55

Both Finestra and Ochs are held in similar positions, with the point at the enemy, but Finestra has the edges up and down, while Ochs has the blade more with flats up and down (sort of), so the thumb rests on the underneath of the blade, on the flat. Ochs is held higher than Finestra in most illustrations. The differences in their use are most easily explained by going through the basic differences between Liechtenauer and Fiore and would really take a long discussion - much easier to do in person than in writing.
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Postby Tarim » 07 Jun 2007 18:03

Okay, I'll pester you at the Mills, then. :twisted:
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Postby admin » 07 Jun 2007 18:10

You're definitely coming? With how many others?
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Postby Tarim » 07 Jun 2007 19:12

So far we're looking at travel expenses. It seems the fast ferry from Holland's been shut down, so we'll have to take "Da Chunnel".

I hope to get a final number by next sunday, but so far there's about 7 people interested, 4 confirmed. Some still have to shift around with work-days, though.

Anyway, there's gonna be a lot of new faces, people who couldn't make it to Dijon turned jaleous by our stories and pictures... :twisted:
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Ochs Incident

Postby Jeffrey Hull » 11 Jun 2007 02:39

Wolfgang Ritter wrote:There is in fact NO, I repeat NO manual in Liechtenauer Tradition describing Ochs with the blade in vertical direction, i.e right Ochs with true edge up and false edge downwards....

...I think your approach to find similarities between different systems like Fiore and Liechtenauer very interesting, but the premise should be, that you are capable of both systems in their own right and THEN try to compare them.

Regards

Wolfgang


Sorry, Wolfgang, that is quite wrong.

Yes -- one may clearly see in these illustrations of Ochs, from manuals in the tradition of Liechtenauer, in this article by my comrades of ARMA-Poland, that the Ochs may be done with true-edge up and false-edge down, as portrayed by Von Danzig, Kal, Wilhalm and Solothurner:

http://www.arma.lh.pl/zrodla/treningi/postawydmn.html

We also see that Talhoffer shows de facto how a swordsman may do Sturzhau from just such an Ochs, even if not stated explicitly as driving therefrom:

http://thearma.org/talhoffer/t2.htm

And what is all this then, with THEN? Trying to kill ST's and other's morale or something for discussing swordsmanship at this forum? Geez...
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Re: Ochs Incident

Postby Fab » 11 Jun 2007 03:15

Jeffrey Hull wrote:Sorry, Wolfgang, that is quite wrong.

Yes -- one may clearly see in these illustrations of Ochs, from manuals in the tradition of Liechtenauer, in this article by my comrades of ARMA-Poland, that the Ochs may be done with true-edge up and false-edge down, as portrayed by Von Danzig, Kal, Wilhalm and Solothurner:

http://www.arma.lh.pl/zrodla/treningi/postawydmn.html


Jeff :

I would advise to get a little bit more accustommed to Medieval and Renaissance artwork before saying such things. I know it takes time, and I know it is still quite a subjective matter, but trust me, once you get used to the pre-Renaissance ways of figuring perspective, things will become clearer.

I have but little experience in that field - that is indeed something one can spend a lifetime acquiring - but I can assure you that neither VD nor the Solothurner, nor even Wilhalm (OK, I give you that : Kal is not crystal clear. OTOH, on the next plate he shows Vom Tag as being held with the left hand forward - so...what amount of trust can we put in these specific drawings ?) clearly show the blade as being absolutely veritcal - sometimes quite clearly diagonal or near-horizontal, in fact.

To add to that, why is it then that our Polish friends - the very same that made this website you refer to - hold their Ochs with the blade not vertical ?


We also see that Talhoffer shows de facto how a swordsman may do Sturzhau from just such an Ochs, even if not stated explicitly as driving therefrom:

http://thearma.org/talhoffer/t2.htm


Careful. You're extrapolating. A Sturzhau is a Hau - but you cannot just by this image go back to only one alleged position with true edge up and false edge down - and you even mention that.


And what is all this then, with THEN? Trying to kill ST's and other's morale or something for discussing swordsmanship at this forum? Geez...


Sure.


The entire point of this thread is to take free shots at Stevie - he's such a poor sod ; I can't wait to tell him so when we meet up next month.

You OK with that, Stevie ?
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Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 11 Jun 2007 10:06

Hello Jeffrey,
I am sorry, but I'll stick to my conclusion that Ochs in Liechtenauer tradition is held with the edges in a horizontal - or quite horizontal with a slight angle - and not vertical way, with the false edge in right Ochs pointing towards the face.

I don't have access to Wilhalm so I can't comment on him, but I am sure about von Danzig, Kal and the Solothurner manuscript, they don't show a "vertical" Ochs. Nor does for example Meyer, who is often cited by the "vertical" fraction. I did as well, but after examining it especially for that reason during the same discussion in other circumstances, I changed my mind.
Fabrice was kind enough to point out that the Talhoffer plate you mentioned does not show the guard, but an action, i.e. a strike. Of course you have to change the angle of the blade to strike an Oberhau or Unterhau from Ochs. BUt that does not change the guard itself. So that example seems to be a rather dangerous assumption.

And what is all this then, with THEN? Trying to kill ST's and other's morale or something for discussing swordsmanship at this forum? Geez...
First if I came across to harsh on Stevie T, I say sorry, Stevie T. I do find it nevertheless quite astounding that you, Jeffrey, play the guardian for civility in this thread, as I find of your postings rather arrogant on a regular basis, but hey, that's just me.

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Postby Stevie T » 11 Jun 2007 10:38

Pot shots at me is fine, as I said I learn through argueing with the knowledgable (and litterate) and having them shoot me down.

I think someone once refered to it as "keyboard fighting". I have no training partners as yet so it's all I can do.

And it's helping my form, no end!

I have been and tried using an angled blade from Ox and can instantly see the advantages in such. IMO it makes cross strikes much more effective and smoother as well as allowing easier transition into downward strikes.

Thanks for the advice.

As for free shots at GPM, would people like I set aside sometime on Friday afternoon for a hit Stevie with sticks session?

I think I have a few people interested! :wink:
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Re: Ochs Incident

Postby admin » 11 Jun 2007 11:34

Jeffrey Hull wrote:Sorry, Wolfgang, that is quite wrong.


And what is all this then, with THEN? Trying to kill ST's and other's morale or something for discussing swordsmanship at this forum? Geez...


Jeffrey, can you please communicate in less combative tones. You'll find you have much more constructive exchanges if you do.
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Re: Ochs Incident

Postby scholadays » 11 Jun 2007 11:43

Fab wrote:The entire point of this thread is to take free shots at Stevie

Was it?
Shit, why did nobody tell me?

Now I'm way behind!
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Re: Ochs Incident

Postby Stevie T » 11 Jun 2007 14:17

scholadays wrote:
Fab wrote:The entire point of this thread is to take free shots at Stevie

Was it?
Shit, why did nobody tell me?

Now I'm way behind!


I even threw in a winky to get you interested
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Re: Ochs Incident

Postby scholadays » 11 Jun 2007 14:37

Stevie T wrote:I even threw in a winky to get you interested

Bastard.
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Re: Ochs Incident

Postby Anders Linnard » 11 Jun 2007 18:15

So the question is how we should hold the Ochs.

The answer is, in all honesty, we can't say for sure, or that there isn't one simple answer. Because even if Fab is right, which he is regarding the interpretation of medieval images, it is only an indication that the images might show something else than what it looks like they are showing. And drawing the conclusion that they are in fact showing a flat in a messed up perspective, might make them fit better with other manuscripts, but isn't necessarily true. They could also simply be showing a vertical or diagonal ochs. The same is true for text. A medieval person could very well write flats up and mean diagonal. Or edge up and mean diagonal.

A problem with discussing theories about these things is the wish for consensus regarding for example the German tradition as a whole. And there isn't one, and most likely never was one either. It is quite possible that the blade should be held horizontally, but it is also very much possible that it could be held in another fashion depending on which master you ask (if only we could) and how you got there. If we try to make general conclusions about all manuscripts, then there will soon be no differences between the manuscripts at all. And frankly, it is less likely that there are no differences between manuscripts, than it is that the Ochs is held vertically in some of them.

I myself is a proponent of holding it diagonally in most situations. I base that on vague principles in the Ringeck manuscript. So I could very well be wrong.

/Anders
Edited to be understandable (like that is going to happen)
Last edited by Anders Linnard on 11 Jun 2007 20:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Rakkasan » 11 Jun 2007 18:51

I'm pretty firmly of the school that the position of Ochs has a lot more to do with use and body mechanics than edge alignment. We're getting wrapped around the axle over a position that can be horizontal, vertical, or diagonal based on use. Since there *are* uses for all three of those, as you recover from cuts, or wind, or whatever, and since Liechtenauer doesn't have two or three separate guards there, I think it's a pretty safe thing to say that they're all Ochs.

You shouldn't be standing still in it anyway.

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