Stevie says Ochs and Pflug = Finestra and Breve

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Postby Stevie T » 01 Jun 2007 11:19

admin wrote:Fendente - Downwards cut with front edge
Sottano - Upwards cut with front OR back edge
Mezzano - Horizontal cut, front edge from the right, back edge from the left
Punta - Thrust
Volta - turn (either of the blade or the body/feet, depending on context)
Incrossada - crossed blades
Reverso - from the left
Posta - a guard position

Here are the main guards for unarmoured longsword:
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/gallery2/ ... temId=6172

Let us know if you have any questions.


Cheers Matt, I now have a clue what your are all going on about!

Nice and easy quick point of reference which is now logged in my favourites.

I will ask one question though;

Which of these gaurds do you feel don't appear in Liechtenauer tradition?

or should I let it lie?
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Postby admin » 01 Jun 2007 11:43

Depends what you mean by the Liechtenauer tradition - do you mean Liechtenauer himself, Doebringer, or everyone including Talhoffer and Meyer, who included stuff from outside of the Liechtenauer tradition?

If I take Ringeck, Von Danzig and Talhoffer then I'll say that these guards don't exist in those systems:

Posta de Finestra
Posta Breve
Posta di Bicorno
Posta di Donna Destraza (the Soprana version - though it is in Meyer)

The Finstra is obviously superficially like Ochs, but held differently and used differently, and Breve is superficially like Pflug, but held differently and used differently. If you can find Bicorno anywhere outside Fiore please let me know!

While Dente di Cinghiale, Tutta Porta di Ferro and Coda Longa are all to be found in the mid-15thC German sources, they certainly don't seem to be as prominent as in Fiore. In fact that can be said of all the known earlier Italian treatises - low guards get more attention than they do in the German traditions (Liechtenauer or Gladiatoria group).
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Postby Stevie T » 01 Jun 2007 13:02

Posta de Finestra - definately the same as Ox, I can't see any difference in how you hold the sword than examples in Talhoffer. Don't know how Fiore uses it but as Ringeck uses it to strike cuts and thrusts, to wind to or from, to displace etc I can't see it being too different

Posta Breve - don't really get where your coming from one this, plough held in the centre. The only way it could be described as being significantly different is if you don't count guards as being single moments with in fluid movements from guard to gaurd. If you except they'r single frames of movement then Breve is simply a guard taken from within the movement of the wind from right plough to left. Would I be right in presuming that Fiore uses a thrust from here?


Posta di Bicorno - Pretty sure it's in one of the Talhoffer plates, but could certanly argue it's the end position of a vertical zwerch on the right foot. Not selected in the German school as a specific gaurd, but certainly a transitory moment.


Posta di Donna Destraza - Again can be seen if taken as part of fluid movement, it appears in Ringeck's first grapple plays, can't remember the name will check when I get home. ( on an aside, in the Vadi book there are a couple images of Fiore and the Posta di Donna Destraza looks quite different to your interpretation; why?)

Looking at your images and what few I've seen of Fiores Longsword he has a tendancy to pull his vita and body backwards which I imagine to be to do with they way he uses the Medieval guards in his perticular style. To me this is more defensive than ther German style, but I don't think I'm saying anything new there, but this is probably where the differences are rather than gaurds or specific techniques.

Depending on where your coming from and your mood the mountain can look very different.
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Postby Fab » 01 Jun 2007 13:19

Stevie T wrote:Posta de Finestra - definately the same as Ox, I can't see any difference in how you hold the sword than examples in Talhoffer. Don't know how Fiore uses it but as Ringeck uses it to strike cuts and thrusts, to wind to or from, to displace etc I can't see it being too different


No. Ochs is held with the hands above and before the forehead, and the thumb on the flat - and, one might add, the blade held horizontal (ie the flat parallel to the ground)


Posta Breve - don't really get where your coming from one this, plough held in the centre.


Yes but No ! If the Pflug is specifically lateralized (with back edge held downwards in left Pflug) that's for a reason.

I leave others to comment on the rest
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Postby Stevie T » 01 Jun 2007 13:27

[url]http:www.thearma.org/talhoffer/t13.htm[/url]

http://www.thearma.org/talhoffer/t18.htm

http://www.thearma.org/talhoffer/t23.htm


Some with vertical blades and no thumbs.

Ox with horizontal blade and thumb would only be within the context of Cross striking (Zwerch) I would have thought. Ringeck certainly mentions nothing of thumbs on the blade other than specifically during his Cross strike section.
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Postby Stevie T » 01 Jun 2007 13:32

Also hadn't realised that plough had to have short edge down on the left, IMO that does not need be the case, it would certainly inhibit thrusts from the left, Ringeck mentions that plough should be used to threaten lower openings with thrusts.
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Postby admin » 01 Jun 2007 13:37

Posted by Fab as I was splitting the threads:

Fab wrote:
Stevie T wrote:[url]http:www.thearma.org/talhoffer/t13.htm[/url]

http://www.thearma.org/talhoffer/t18.htm

http://www.thearma.org/talhoffer/t23.htm


Some with vertical blades and no thumbs.

Ox with horizontal blade and thumb would only be within the context of Cross striking (Zwerch) I would have thought. Ringeck certainly mentions nothing of thumbs on the blade other than specifically during his Cross strike section.


Look better, Stevie. The blades don't look vertical to me. Besides, these are not guards. And Talhoffer is indeed a strange animal. :)
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Postby Fab » 01 Jun 2007 13:37

Cheers mate.
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Postby admin » 01 Jun 2007 13:38

Stevie, have you though for a second that maybe the people in the HEMA community who have been studying these systems, translating them and publishing on them for the last 8 years or more may know more about it than you? ;)
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Postby admin » 01 Jun 2007 13:43

Stevie T wrote:Posta de Finestra - definately the same as Ox


You are wrong.

Posta Breve - don't really get where your coming from one this, plough held in the centre.


You are wrong.
It's like me saying True Guardant is the same as Pflug, just held in a different place and used for different things. :roll:

Posta di Donna Destraza - Again can be seen if taken as part of fluid movement, it appears in Ringeck's first grapple plays, can't remember the name will check when I get home. ( on an aside, in the Vadi book there are a couple images of Fiore and the Posta di Donna Destraza looks quite different to your interpretation; why?)


Dude. I'm not going to spoon feed you. Go and look at the three versions of Fiore's treatise, now look at Vadi. They are different. :roll:

this is probably where the differences are rather than gaurds or specific techniques.


Your time would be better spent actually learning something about the differences rather than just making stuff up. Sorry.
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Postby admin » 01 Jun 2007 14:04

admin wrote:
Stevie T wrote:( on an aside, in the Vadi book there are a couple images of Fiore and the Posta di Donna Destraza looks quite different to your interpretation; why?)


Dude. I'm not going to spoon feed you. Go and look at the three versions of Fiore's treatise, now look at Vadi. They are different. :roll:


Mea culpa - on this point I misread you. Here is Fiore's Posta di Donna Destraza (lo Soprana), top right:
Image

This appears in Meyer as Zornhut.

However, there is another type of Posta di Donna Destraza which is more like some treatise's Vom Tag, of course:
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/gallery2/ ... temId=6128

Vadi's Posta di Donna is rather different.
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Postby Stevie T » 01 Jun 2007 14:07

admin wrote:Stevie, have you though for a second that maybe the people in the HEMA community who have been studying these systems, translating them and publishing on them for the last 8 years or more may know more about it than you? ;)



Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you and Fab don't know what your talking about. (or anybody else I might of offended)

You are two highly respected individuals with masses of knowledge, hence why I choose to argue with you.

It's just argueing is my main way of learning, testing my understanding, learning from my mistakes(sometimes).

Cheers for the title of the thread by the way! :oops:
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Postby Fab » 01 Jun 2007 14:10

No worries mate, I still like you :) (that is, until we meet at the Mills).

These things are better shown and discussed in real life than on a forum anyway.


That must be that woman part in you, who wants to learn through argueing. They all do that.
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Postby Stevie T » 01 Jun 2007 14:21

admin wrote:It's like me saying True Guardant is the same as Pflug, just held in a different place and used for different things. :roll:


Not quite, what I was trying to say is that if you wind from plough on the left to plough on the right you will pass through Breve, and that as all guards are transitory positions then could it not be possible to say that Breve exists within the German system.

admin wrote:Your time would be better spent actually learning something about the differences rather than just making stuff up. Sorry.


I am learning, all the time, I haven't spent a huge amount of time on Fiore as...as...as I'm lazy and there is a shed load of stuff to learn before I get anywhere near a longsword.

I also had a lot of problems interpreting Fiore's stuff so gave up quite easily, I now have a copy of Colins stuff so will start working through it.

On the point of Ox I was working from Toblers German Secrets throughout which he always holds the blade verticle when in Ox.

As you say listen to the men who have been doing it for years and are published :wink:

Seriously though, thanks to you and Fab, it is all helping me to get a better grip on things.
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Postby Stevie T » 01 Jun 2007 14:25

Fab wrote:No worries mate, I still like you :) (that is, until we meet at the Mills).

These things are better shown and discussed in real life than on a forum anyway.


That must be that woman part in you, who wants to learn through argueing. They all do that.


Thanks, I'm looking forward to the Mills, just hope it won't be too painfull! :D

I hadn't realised women were trying to learning something, I thought they just enjoyed screaming and shouting! :shock:
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Postby Fab » 01 Jun 2007 14:28

Stevie T wrote:Thanks, I'm looking forward to the Mills, just hope it won't be too painfull! :D

I hadn't realised women were trying to learning something, I thought they just enjoyed screaming and shouting! :shock:


Yeah, I noticed that too. I was just trying to put some purpose in all that.
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Postby admin » 01 Jun 2007 14:48

Stevie T wrote:Not quite, what I was trying to say is that if you wind from plough on the left to plough on the right you will pass through Breve, and that as all guards are transitory positions then could it not be possible to say that Breve exists within the German system.


Then we may as well say everything exists in everything else.
You asked me a question about guards, I gave you an answer.

I also had a lot of problems interpreting Fiore's stuff so gave up quite easily, I now have a copy of Colins stuff so will start working through it.


95% of Fiore is dead easy if you have a translation.

On the point of Ox I was working from Toblers German Secrets throughout which he always holds the blade verticle when in Ox.


Which was wrong, and he admits.

As you say listen to the men who have been doing it for years and are published :wink:


Indeed - Christian has released lots of updates to that book.
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Postby Matclarke » 01 Jun 2007 15:59

Toblers 'Fighting with the German Longsword' shows Ochs differently to his book 'Secrets'.

He holds the blade at about a 30 degree angle to the horizontal, with his thumb under the blade. His weight distribution is about 40% front, 60% rear leg.

I think he made these changes based off (at least partly) on the picture from Von Danzig. Also some text I believe (can't remember which manual) where they said to hold ochs with the short edge facing your body, and the long edge facing out (for a right ochs).
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Postby admin » 01 Jun 2007 16:09

And to reiterate an eariler point, these two guards are held differently because they are USED differently. That is perhaps much more important to recognise than the differences in their appearance alone.
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Postby Matclarke » 01 Jun 2007 16:15

admin wrote:And to reiterate an eariler point, these two guards are held differently because they are USED differently. That is perhaps much more important to recognise than the differences in their appearance alone.


Am I correct in saying Fenestra is an instabile guard?
Does that mean it is a guard that is quickly transitioned into?

I believe there are some videos of it in use on Sean hayes' site.

http://northwestacademyofarms.com/resources.htm
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