One-sentence Liechtenauer Meisterhau

Liechtenauer lineage and related sources (eg. Sigmund Ringeck, Peter von Danzig, Paulus Kal, Hans Talhoffer), interpretation and practice. Open to public view.

Postby Adam R » 24 Apr 2006 18:03

Hi Jeff - yes yes yes

Especially the glancing down the blade thing

The 'squinter' nonsense has led to some odd interpretation imho

:)

Meisterhau has won widespread use thanks to Mr Toblers book I suspect
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Postby Jeff Gentry » 24 Apr 2006 18:11

Adam R wrote:Hi Jeff - yes yes yes

Especially the glancing down the blade thing

The 'squinter' nonsense has led to some odd interpretation imho

:)

Meisterhau has won widespread use thanks to Mr Toblers book I suspect


I have been at this about three year's and i just realized the glance thing in the last 7-8 month's.

I read his book when i first started and it was good as a beggining book then as i dug deaper in older text i started to realy like the term hidden/seceret strikes because that is exactly what they are, it is hard to tell what is happening when they are used against you with the exception of the zorn/rage strike like Doebringer/Lichtenauer say's nothing is as good when you are raging.

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Postby MugginsToadwort » 25 Apr 2006 14:04

Adam,

I notice your version of the strikes is similar to mine- overarching principles, not technical details.

As far as the name "Meisterhau" goes, I follow Meyer:

"The strikes with the Sword are many, belonging to two groups, which are common to both the direct and indirect strikes which we shall name. The first group is named the Lead or Principal strikes, on which all other strikes are based, and which are four, Over, Under, Middle, and Wrathful strikes. The others are named the secondary or derivative strikes, which are twelve in number, namely the Glance, Curve, Short, Slide, Bounce: Single and Double, Blind, Wound, Crown, Knuckle, Plunge, and Change Strike. Beyond these strikes come the proper Master Strikes, which we shall also name, from which all masterful and artful moves with the Sword are made and accomplished with varying grips, these are Wrath, Bent, Traverser, Glancer and Vertex which are all used when wanting to conclude and complete, and which I will describe to you. Just as I introduced pre-fencing, so I have clearly spoken and introduced the Strikes to you."

But then again, I am enamoured of the later masters: Mair and Meyer....


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Postby Adam R » 25 Apr 2006 15:54

MugginsToadwort wrote:Adam,

I notice your version of the strikes is similar to mine- overarching principles, not technical details.

As far as the name "Meisterhau" goes, I follow Meyer:

"The strikes with the Sword are many, belonging to two groups, which are common to both the direct and indirect strikes which we shall name. The first group is named the Lead or Principal strikes, on which all other strikes are based, and which are four, Over, Under, Middle, and Wrathful strikes. The others are named the secondary or derivative strikes, which are twelve in number, namely the Glance, Curve, Short, Slide, Bounce: Single and Double, Blind, Wound, Crown, Knuckle, Plunge, and Change Strike. Beyond these strikes come the proper Master Strikes, which we shall also name, from which all masterful and artful moves with the Sword are made and accomplished with varying grips, these are Wrath, Bent, Traverser, Glancer and Vertex which are all used when wanting to conclude and complete, and which I will describe to you. Just as I introduced pre-fencing, so I have clearly spoken and introduced the Strikes to you."

But then again, I am enamoured of the later masters: Mair and Meyer....


James


Hi James

Yes - I do think people sometimes get too precise in what the texts are trying to teach us.

Don't get me wrong - I am a big fan of Meyer, I just don't have a reliable translation yet (Jeff's is tantalisingly close though) - he categorises and explains in a very 'modern' way. Your translation is from Mike Rassmusson? (sp?)
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Postby MugginsToadwort » 26 Apr 2006 11:40

Yes, I use Mike Rasmussen's with a lot of rewriting and some translation changes.

And yes, having the Forgeng translation on order is leaving me very impatient. I took on the messer/dussack syllabus a few years ago, and that is the section I really want!

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Postby Adam R » 27 Apr 2006 09:46

MugginsToadwort wrote:Yes, I use Mike Rasmussen's with a lot of rewriting and some translation changes.

And yes, having the Forgeng translation on order is leaving me very impatient. I took on the messer/dussack syllabus a few years ago, and that is the section I really want!

James


Apparently it is now a stock item and ready to send

For those wishing to order:

http://fm.greenhillbooks.com/greenhill/FMPro?-db=greenhillbooks.fp5&-format=record%5fdetail.htm&-lay=layout%201&title=The%20Art%20of%20Combat&-find=
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Postby T.L. Johnson » 15 Nov 2007 22:20

Vor and Nach in one sentence each.

Vor: If you focus on what you want to do, it will happen.

Nach: If your focus is on what the other guy is doing, it will happen.
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Postby Paul B » 15 Nov 2007 23:14

T.L. Johnson wrote:Vor and Nach in one sentence each.

Vor: If you focus on what you want to do, it will happen.

Nach: If your focus is on what the other guy is doing, it will happen.


Vor: I kill you

Nach: I still kill you :lol:
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby Andreas Engström » 16 Nov 2007 11:11

I am in Vor: You are forced to react to what I do
I am in Nach: I am forced to react to what you do, but will do it in a way (Indes) that gives me back Vor

Nach isn't something negative. Everybody ends up in Nach at times. If you are in Nach and don't realize it, and instead act as though you had Vor, you will most likely die. If your opponent was sloppy and didn't cover well you may well harm him grieveously in the process, but that's really no consolation when you're dead.

Many beginners try to be in Vor all the time, and when two such people spar it quickly becomes double hit bonanza. That's the time to break them up and explain the above.

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Postby Bill Grandy » 16 Nov 2007 18:53

Andreas Engström wrote:Nach isn't something negative. Everybody ends up in Nach at times. If you are in Nach and don't realize it, and instead act as though you had Vor, you will most likely die. If your opponent was sloppy and didn't cover well you may well harm him grieveously in the process, but that's really no consolation when you're dead.

Many beginners try to be in Vor all the time, and when two such people spar it quickly becomes double hit bonanza. That's the time to break them up and explain the above.


Very well put, Andreas! You've stated one of my major pet peeves about how people understand vor and nach.
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Postby swordflasher » 16 Nov 2007 20:18

On vor and nach. As a newbie I thought it was like - someone is about to punch you, you can step in and attack them as they start to go to hit you, or you can step to the side and do some damage after they miss
Or do something clever just as they are striking, obviously.

Was I miles out?
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Postby Paul B » 16 Nov 2007 20:59

swordflasher wrote:On vor and nach. As a newbie I thought it was like - someone is about to punch you, you can step in and attack them as they start to go to hit you, or you can step to the side and do some damage after they miss
Or do something clever just as they are striking, obviously.

Was I miles out?


Not far off, that is more like Indes for the former, and nach for the later. Although, waiting for someone to punch you is not as desirable as hitting them first (Vor)

Although, there is bluryness between the Vor and the Nach because of a slight inconsistency between the ways in which diferent manuscripts approach it.

Some also see Vor as "controling the fight" because one has the initiative. IMO it is simpler than this.
Vor = before your opponent does somthing
Indes = during your opponent doing somthing
Nach = after your opponent does somthing
.... or I could be completely wrong.

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Postby swordflasher » 16 Nov 2007 21:12

Paul B wrote: Vor = before your opponent does somthing
Indes = during your opponent doing somthing
Nach = after your opponent does somthing


That's what I meant.

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Re: One-sentence Liechtenauer Meisterhau

Postby Randall Pleasant » 16 Nov 2007 22:22

admin wrote:Hi - as a Fioreist of course I have a passing interest in Liechtenauer, as a contemporary system. I've seen a lot of different teachers presenting classes on Liechtenauer (or other masters in his lineage), and I am curious to see if we can put together a one-sentence explanation for each of the meisterhau below?

I think it would really be a useful thing for students of other fencing systems to have: a brief list of the meisterhau and basically what each one does and why. As concise as possible.

Matt

The master cuts are really nothing more than the ways in which a person can cut with a sword. Some of the cuts are not intuitive but they are all simple. We must remember to keep the cuts separate from the many techniques that make use of them. The "art" is in using these simple cuts to break guards, counter cut against strikes and thrusts, and other techniques.

Zornhau - diagonal oberhau with true edge.

Sheitelhau - vertical oberhau with true edge.

Schielhau - vertical or diagonal oberhau with false edge

Zwerchhau - high horizontal cut

Krumphau - I'll skip this one for now. :P http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB2/vi ... php?t=5995 :P
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Postby Colin Richards » 29 Jan 2008 15:08

HI Folks,

Being a Fioreist I would like to propose a statement and see what the reaction is.

All the hidden strikes are primarily used as defensive moves, counter strikes and therefore used in the Nach.

What do people think about this?

All the best

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Postby Colin Richards » 29 Jan 2008 16:00

Hi Folks,

My second post on this subject put forward the proposal that we look at the hidden strikes in another way.

What are the main methods of countering hidden strikes?

All hidden strikes are coming from above? Would the natural answer to these strikes be strikes from below or the side (rising)?


Secondarily.
Many people seem to see a sheitelhau as a break to the alber position, though surely it will only work if the opponents sword is travelling down at the time of the start of you attack. (as people are stating I think)

All the best

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Postby bigdummy » 29 Jan 2008 16:35

I think the Shiel is the 'plunging strike', in that the point drops, -it 'plunges in' or kind of rotates. It makes it harder to displace with some of the standard defenses against an oberhau, like your high hangers.
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 29 Jan 2008 16:55

Colin Richards wrote:All the hidden strikes are primarily used as defensive moves, counter strikes and therefore used in the Nach.

Well, yes, that's the real trick isn't it? I can break the opponent's initiative - his "vor" - with the hidden strikes, thus gaining the vor myself - and if I'm really good I can put my opponent out of commission at the same time.

It is stated throughout the "zedel" that I should perform one of the hidden strikes when the opponent has attacked. For instance 44 A 8 on 13r:
Wenn dw mit dem zu° vechten zu ym kumst | haut er dir denn von seiner rechtñ seitten oben ein zu° dem kopff | So haw auch von dein° rechten seitten von oben an alle vor satzung | Mit im zornigklich ein auf sein swert

Nevertheless there are some passages that advocate an action where no prior movement of the opponent is mentioned, for instance 44 A 8 on 24v:
Merck wenn du mit dem zü fechten zw° ÿm kumpst | Stet er denn gegen dir | vnd helt dir den langen ort gegen dem gesicht oder der prust | So halt dein swert an der rechten achsel | vnd schil mit dem gesicht zu° dem ort | vnd thu°e als dw ÿm dar zu° hauen wöllest | vnd haw starck mit dem schilär mit der kurtzen schneid an sein swert | vñ scheus ÿm den ort do mit lanck ein ze dem hals mit einem zw° tritt des rechten füess ~
However, these passages are the exception, not the rule.

All the best
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Postby Dierk Hagedorn » 29 Jan 2008 16:59

Colin Richards wrote:Many people seem to see a sheitelhau as a break to the alber position, though surely it will only work if the opponents sword is travelling down at the time of the start of you attack. (as people are stating I think)
Well, at least I do.
And it is written, of course:
44 A 8 on 25r wrote:Wenn dw mit dem zu° vechten zw° ÿm kumpst legt er sich denn gegen dir in die hu°t alber | So setz den lincken fuess vor vnd halt dein swert an deiner rechten achsel Inn der hu°t | vnd spring zw° Im | vnd haw mit der langen schneid starck von oben nider Im zu° dem kopff
It says explicitly that I strike the Scheitelhau as soon as he moves his sword into Alber.

Best greetings
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Postby Randall Pleasant » 29 Jan 2008 17:17

Colin

The following is a very limited discussion of just a few select counter techniques. One should know about 10 different methods for dealing with each type of attack.

Colin Richards wrote:What are the main methods of countering hidden strikes?


In single time a Zornhau (diagonal oberhau with true edge) can be countered with a Zornhau or a Schielhau. In double time the Zorn can be set aside (absetzen) with either Pflug or Ochs and followed up with a thrust.

In single time a Sheitelhau (vertical oberhau with true edge) can be countered with a Zwerchhau. In double time, the Sheitelhau can be displaced with a hanging parry and followed up with your own oberhau (very useful if you are in Alber and they try to break your guard).

In single time a Zwerchhau can be countered with a Zwerchhau. In double time a Zwerchhau (high horizontal cut) is counter by striking a Sheitelhau onto the oncoming blade, knocking it down out of its path or catching it on the lower guard, and following up with your own Zwerchhau.

Colin Richards wrote:All hidden strikes are coming from above? Would the natural answer to these strikes be strikes from below or the side (rising)?

Any oberhau can be countered by either striking up to the hands or by catching the hands with your edge. I'm not sure if I would use the word "natural" but some of the counters (Zorn, Zwerch,) involve striking from the side, ie. your edge impacting the flat of the other blade at roughly 90 degrees. ARMA members strongly disagree with interpretations of the Zorn, such as Toblers, which results in an edge-on-edge hack and does not make a single time attempt to strike the adversary.

Colin Richards wrote:Many people seem to see a sheitelhau as a break to the alber position, though surely it will only work if the opponents sword is travelling down at the time of the start of you attack. (as people are stating I think)


No, the Sheitelhau breaks Alber by out reaching cuts made from that guard. But as discussed above, a hanging parry easily displaces a Sheitelhau.
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