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Modern wechselpräpositionen vs previous usage. +Vom Tag eg.

PostPosted: 03 Sep 2012 13:28
by Matclarke
Hello,

A question about wechselpräpositionen.

I remembering back to my German lessons, these seemed quite precise in the positions they described.
Assuming my memory serves me correctly- Did these have the same precision in meaning in the older and regional German language seen in the 14th-17th Century fencing texts, as they do now?
Did they have slightly different meanings?

I'm wondering if I'm reading into the text too much.

An example of what I'm meaning-
Extract from 26r Codex 44 A 8 (Von Danzig 1452 Rome Version) by Dierk Hagedorn
Stee mit dem lincken fueß vor vnd halt dein swert an deiner rechtñ achsel ...


Wechselpräpositionen here is 'an'.

If this were modern German, I'd interpret that as having the sword against (as in touching) my the side of shoulder somewhere (i.e. not on top of). However, I think 'an' can also be used as 'at', which would put the sword at somewhere near the shoulder. I'd still lean towards the 'against' translation. Appropriate to do so, or not?

Interestingly, my Hammer's German Grammar and Usage book states-

In older German, an was commonly used in the sense of 'down on', and this is still apparent in phrases like am Boden, an der Erder 'on the ground'...

Re: Modern wechselpräpositionen vs previous usage. +Vom Tag

PostPosted: 04 Sep 2012 20:30
by andreasm
Hello

generally there is no binding gramma in that time (15 century), so it is difficult to use modern gramma for the fencing books. Better use books about middel high german or early new high german Gramma.

My "Lexer, Mittelhochdeutsches Wörterbuch" says an = (räumlich/space) an, auf, in, gegen
out of "Etmyologisches Wörterbuc des Deutschen" an = dicht bei, nahe, in, ungefähr, etwa.

So the translation with against is correct.

Hope that was helpfull for you.

All the best from bavaria
Andreas

Re: Modern wechselpräpositionen vs previous usage. +Vom Tag

PostPosted: 05 Sep 2012 06:58
by Herbert
As the "Achsel" is really the armpit it really does not make any sense to put the sword exactly AT the armpit. So it must be used in the sense of "against" or "in the area of".

The german "an" is still used in a lot of ways depending on the context. If you ask me to translate "an" into englisch, I can't because it really depends on the context.

Herbert

Shoulder and armpit (was Re: Modern wechselpräpositionen )

PostPosted: 26 Sep 2012 10:08
by Andreas Engström
Herbert wrote:As the "Achsel" is really the armpit it really does not make any sense to put the sword exactly AT the armpit. So it must be used in the sense of "against" or "in the area of".

Herbert, I think I must respectfully disagree here even though you are a native German speaker.

The word for "armpit" is "uohse" (or "üchsene", "ugsen", "uhssen", "uchsel" or even more outlandish spellings, but it always begins with the sound "u", not "a").

The word for "shoulder" is "ahsel" (or "achsel", "agsell", or whatever).

As an example, in Codex Wallerstein both shoulder and armpit are mentioned (and the context makes it absolutely crystal clear which is intended in those places). "Shoulder" is spelled "agssel" (5R) and "armpit" is spelled "ugssen" (9R).

Everywhere I can find where the armpit is clearly intended, the word starts with "u". It's in Rast, Mair, Wallerstein, Glasgow, etc.

I can't find anywhere where the shoulder is clearly intended and the word starts with "u". Everywhere I've found (examples abound, it's mentioned a bit more frequently than the armpit :) ) it starts with "a".

I've been looking through Lexer, BMZ, RhWB, MWB and some more and they all agree.

Oh, and DWB agrees as well, although that is for slightly more modern usage. They do say that "uchsel" could possibly mean "shoulder" as well. However, as far as I can see they don't mention that "achsel" could mean "armpit". Also, they list "uchse" as one of the explanations of the (non-medieval, I think) "Achselhöle".

-Andreas

Re: Shoulder and armpit (was Re: Modern wechselpräpositionen

PostPosted: 27 Sep 2012 19:27
by Claudia
Andreas Engström wrote:
The word for "armpit" is "uohse" (or "üchsene", "ugsen", "uhssen", "uchsel" or even more outlandish spellings, but it always begins with the sound "u", not "a").

The word for "shoulder" is "ahsel" (or "achsel", "agsell", or whatever).

-Andreas


Thank you very much for this clarification, Andreas! This seems an example where a German word has shiftily and sneakily changed meaning over the centuries!
I am just working my way through a Joachim Meyer transcrption, with only my modern German knowledge to help. It is good to be reminded that what I understand might not by what the good Joachim meant. ;) I know whom ask if in doubt! :)

Re: Shoulder and armpit (was Re: Modern wechselpräpositionen

PostPosted: 28 Sep 2012 07:58
by Herbert
Andreas Engström wrote:
Herbert wrote:As the "Achsel" is really the armpit it really does not make any sense to put the sword exactly AT the armpit. So it must be used in the sense of "against" or "in the area of".

Herbert, I think I must respectfully disagree here even though you are a native German speaker.

By all means - do disagree! Expecially if your opinion is that well based on research.
I wield to your superior knowledge.

Thanks for clearing that.

Herbert