Zwerchau

Liechtenauer lineage and related sources (eg. Sigmund Ringeck, Peter von Danzig, Paulus Kal, Hans Talhoffer), interpretation and practice. Open to public view.

Re: Zwerchau

Postby B. Cross » 20 Jan 2012 15:50

I have done it with a stick against a sword, and yes, it is risky for the fingers. But it is not impossible. I would also always prefer to have a cross there, just so you know.

(and, by implication, requires your opponent not to be perfect)


So every technique you do requires your opponent not to do his right?
Motvs, das worte schone, ist des fechtens eyn hort und krone.
User avatar
B. Cross
Corporal
 
Posts: 76
Joined: 15 Jan 2012 17:18
Location: Nottingham, UK / Sofia, Bulgaria

Re: Zwerchau

Postby Andreas Engström » 20 Jan 2012 16:00

B. Cross wrote:I have done it with a stick against a sword, and yes, it is risky for the fingers. But it is not impossible. I would also always prefer to have a cross there, just so you know.

"Not impossible" is hardly a recommendation for a technique. :-) There are so many other options that are infinitely safer, so what would be the point of choosing one that is "not impossible"?
B. Cross wrote:
(and, by implication, requires your opponent not to be perfect)


So every technique you do requires your opponent not to do his right?

There's a difference between "right" and "perfect". So no. But generally, against a perfectly performed attack a single-time defence like a verborgnes haw generally won't work as a counterattack, but it will keep you safe.

-Andreas
User avatar
Andreas Engström
Brigadier
 
Posts: 1560
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 13:40
Location: Göteborg, Sweden

Re: Zwerchau

Postby B. Cross » 20 Jan 2012 16:11

When someone is trying to split your head, you do not generally have time to consider the best possibilities. A Zwerchau delivered in tempo works, even if its harder to do without a cross. Of course there are safer techniques. It is also safer to use a bow from afar, or a spear, but I believe the master strikes were not only a main technique for a duel, but also meant to be the best reaction for a surprise attack in a self-defence situation.
Motvs, das worte schone, ist des fechtens eyn hort und krone.
User avatar
B. Cross
Corporal
 
Posts: 76
Joined: 15 Jan 2012 17:18
Location: Nottingham, UK / Sofia, Bulgaria

Zwerchau

Postby Andreas Engström » 20 Jan 2012 16:22

B. Cross wrote:When someone is trying to split your head, you do not generally have time to consider the best possibilities. A Zwerchau delivered in tempo works, even if its harder to do without a cross. Of course there are safer techniques. It is also safer to use a bow from afar, or a spear, but I believe the master strikes were not only a main technique for a duel, but also meant to be the best reaction for a surprise attack in a self-defence situation.

yes, it's a very good reaction if you have a longsword. It's rather a rubbish reaction if you don't.

You keep switching back and forth between talking about a proper zwerch with a longsword and that vaguely zwerch-like thing with a jo.

All I'm saying is that the first is a zwerch and works very well, the other is something vaguely zwerch-like that seems rather unwise to attempt since there are much better options. OK?

-Andreas
User avatar
Andreas Engström
Brigadier
 
Posts: 1560
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 13:40
Location: Göteborg, Sweden

Re: Zwerchau

Postby B. Cross » 20 Jan 2012 16:56

Ok, if yoy want to put it this way. Our only actual difference in opinion is that I believe this zwerchlike thing is effective.
Motvs, das worte schone, ist des fechtens eyn hort und krone.
User avatar
B. Cross
Corporal
 
Posts: 76
Joined: 15 Jan 2012 17:18
Location: Nottingham, UK / Sofia, Bulgaria

Re: Zwerchau

Postby Mink » 21 Jan 2012 21:25

B. Cross wrote:I have seen a rough equivalent to a left side zwerch in katori shinto ryu.

I have trained in this style for 5 years and I can't figure what you're talking about. Granted I stopped before getting into the really advanced stuff... But if you have anything more detailed I'd be glad to know.

Regards,
--
Vincent Le Chevalier
Ensis Sub Caelo
User avatar
Mink
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 385
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:11
Location: Paris, France

Re: Zwerchau

Postby B. Cross » 24 Jan 2012 02:50

http://youtu.be/5bBJ1NR7PcQ a short clip on Zwerch with a stick.
Motvs, das worte schone, ist des fechtens eyn hort und krone.
User avatar
B. Cross
Corporal
 
Posts: 76
Joined: 15 Jan 2012 17:18
Location: Nottingham, UK / Sofia, Bulgaria

Re: Zwerchau

Postby Andreas Engström » 24 Jan 2012 09:01

B. Cross wrote:http://youtu.be/5bBJ1NR7PcQ a short clip on Zwerch with a stick.

The attacker seems to have no intention at all, leads with his hands, and completely freezes as soon as the counter-technique is initiated. Looks like almost every asian MA (and unfortunately quite a lot of HEMA) technique demonstration I've seen. You write in the video that the attacker is trying to cut the fingers after the "zwerch" but there is no indication at all that he does this. He's completely paralyzed every time.

Also, you do staff techniques four times. The first time you do something that looks like a (rather low) zwerch, staying in the bind (or at least close to it). That time, if the attacker had had any intention at all he would have hit your fingers. Or perhaps even your head, since you bind so low.

The second time, you do the same but leave the bind. Very dangerous. If the attacker had tried to follow up you would have had no control over his sword at all. You can't trust that your thrust will incapacitate him instantly.

The third and fourth time you do something that seems much more sensible to do with a staff, you strike his flat (very much like the krumphaw technique "weaken the master"). A good choice. But it no longer has much resemblance to a zwerch.

-Andreas

PS. Your zwerch with the longsword looks quite good, though!
[Edit: After watching the longsword zwerch attempts more carefully (I was concentrating on the staff stuff the first time) I would modify this to say that the second longsword zwerch looks quite good. The first and third have some issues, as outlined below.]
Last edited by Andreas Engström on 24 Jan 2012 15:04, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Andreas Engström
Brigadier
 
Posts: 1560
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 13:40
Location: Göteborg, Sweden

Re: Zwerchau

Postby B. Cross » 24 Jan 2012 12:00

I am the attacker:V. But thank you for commenting.

The first strike against the jo I do not try to cut his fingers. I do in all the following, but his strike with the jo displaces my blade immediately after the contact. So I stop my action and he finishes his nach.

As Alex was thinking about spear work, he first when with a thrust, I noted later that it is not 100% as witha bladed weapon, but it was already too dark to shoot anew. ANd that is why he goes for the safer variant later. Believe me, I am trying to cut his fingers as much as I can.

And the last strike was exactly that - going with zwerch for the flat, as the best way. IMO, it is just a slight modification of zwerchau.
Motvs, das worte schone, ist des fechtens eyn hort und krone.
User avatar
B. Cross
Corporal
 
Posts: 76
Joined: 15 Jan 2012 17:18
Location: Nottingham, UK / Sofia, Bulgaria

Re: Zwerchau

Postby Gil-Galadh » 24 Jan 2012 12:26

I didn't read the whole thread, but this last video shows a mighty strange interpretation of what a zwerch is?
So, I'll just leave this video, of what I consider a proper zwerch is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc
Vicky Chudinova
User avatar
Gil-Galadh
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 353
Joined: 05 May 2007 16:45
Location: Varna,Bulgaria

Re: Zwerchau

Postby B. Cross » 24 Jan 2012 12:37

Gil-Galadh, I've seen you zwerch, and I really like it. I do not see that big of a difference except that yours is done with a higher tempo and speed, because you are using masks, and metal weapons. Ours were just 3000 miles away, and we had to do it on grass with wooden wasters, w=so we had to slow down things a bit. Zwerch can go either high or low, and have the cross be either high or low. We put the cross lower here, because that is the logic of the phrase.

I must note that within the videos we have watched in our school (at camps we gather together, watch works of other groups and discuss them) yours is one of our favourites in terms of martial intent and positionimg. Although we wondered why one of the guys does not have gloves on.
Motvs, das worte schone, ist des fechtens eyn hort und krone.
User avatar
B. Cross
Corporal
 
Posts: 76
Joined: 15 Jan 2012 17:18
Location: Nottingham, UK / Sofia, Bulgaria

Re: Zwerchau

Postby Andreas Engström » 24 Jan 2012 12:47

B. Cross wrote:The first strike against the jo I do not try to cut his fingers. I do in all the following, but his strike with the jo displaces my blade immediately after the contact. So I stop my action and he finishes his nach.

Yes, this is the problem.
B. Cross wrote:Believe me, I am trying to cut his fingers as much as I can.

Since you stop your action, no, you can't possibly be doing that.
B. Cross wrote:And the last strike was exactly that - going with zwerch for the flat, as the best way. IMO, it is just a slight modification of zwerchau.

I would say it no longer is a zwerchau at all, but something that much more resembles a krump although without crossing the arms as much as you would with a sword.

-Andreas
User avatar
Andreas Engström
Brigadier
 
Posts: 1560
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 13:40
Location: Göteborg, Sweden

Re: Zwerchau

Postby Andreas Engström » 24 Jan 2012 12:55

B. Cross wrote: We put the cross lower here, because that is the logic of the phrase.

Which phrase would that be? This is what Ringeck says about the zwerch as a defense against zorn:
So spring mit dem rechte~ fu°ß gen Im vß dem hawe Vff Sin lincken sytten vnd im springen verwent din schwert mit de~ gehu~ltz houch vor deine~ haupt das din dou~m vnnde~ kome vmd schlach In mit der kurtze~ schnide~ zu° siner lincken sytten So vaschdü sine~ haw In din gehu~ltz vnd triffest In zu° dem kopff ~

(my bolding and coloring of the relevant part)

-Andreas
User avatar
Andreas Engström
Brigadier
 
Posts: 1560
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 13:40
Location: Göteborg, Sweden

Re: Zwerchau

Postby B. Cross » 24 Jan 2012 13:00

Maybe it is also my lack of experience in shooting videos like this - first time I've done. Unfortunately, my instructor is 3000 miles away, so I could only talk with him on the phone.

Still I believe what you see as krump follows the principle of Zwerch, but it changes it so it fits the situation. It may not be 'pure' zwerch, but I did say you should modify it when going with a stick.

Oh, I was talking about a phrase of fencing. I am not sure what is the equivalent term in english. We use that to mark an exchange.

But if I am reading it right, the ophrase you have given is 'with the cross high in front of your head'. Yes, this is the general zwerchau, but every situation makes a little change. Strikes are not fixed, they depend on timing, length, and rhytm.
Motvs, das worte schone, ist des fechtens eyn hort und krone.
User avatar
B. Cross
Corporal
 
Posts: 76
Joined: 15 Jan 2012 17:18
Location: Nottingham, UK / Sofia, Bulgaria

Re: Zwerchau

Postby Andreas Engström » 24 Jan 2012 13:24

Suggestion: For the next video, wear (as a minimum) masks and gloves, and give the attacker the instructions to start with a zornhaw and after that continue to do his damndest to try to hit (with cut, thrust or slice) the opponent in whatever way he can, of course trying to stay safe himself (no kamikaze attacks)

If the attacker is decisively hit by the defender's zwerch, he has only one more tempo (one action with the sword, plus possibly one step) to make one last attempt at hitting the defender, and then (and only then) he stops.

Oh, and if you have steel weapons, use them instead of wooden wasters. You will probably need to add even more protection, otherwise the attacker might not actually try his best to hit the defender due to not wanting to hurt him, and this will distort technique.

I think you may find that some of your interpretations of things will change.

If you have none of these things available, at the very least make the attacker not stop trying to get to the defender until he's actually been hit himself... having your sword struck is no reason to become paralyzed!

-Andreas
User avatar
Andreas Engström
Brigadier
 
Posts: 1560
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 13:40
Location: Göteborg, Sweden

Re: Zwerchau

Postby B. Cross » 24 Jan 2012 13:33

We had only wasters available. so I guess the video was not as convincing as I hoped it to be. Unfortunately, I'll have other equipment in a couple of months when my semester finishes and I get back home. I'll make it again, but I still think that I have at least made clear of the intended way of using zwerch with a stick, even if the demonstration was lacking in the ways you describe. But that is all I can do for the moment. Thank you for the time you took discussing it.
Motvs, das worte schone, ist des fechtens eyn hort und krone.
User avatar
B. Cross
Corporal
 
Posts: 76
Joined: 15 Jan 2012 17:18
Location: Nottingham, UK / Sofia, Bulgaria

Re: Zwerchau

Postby Andreas Engström » 24 Jan 2012 13:36

B. Cross wrote:We had only wasters available. so I guess the video was not as convincing as I hoped it to be. Unfortunately, I'll have other equipment in a couple of months when my semester finishes and I get back home. I'll make it again, but I still think that I have at least made clear of the intended way of using zwerch with a stick, even if the demonstration was lacking in the ways you describe. But that is all I can do for the moment. Thank you for the time you took discussing it.

Thank you for taking the time, effort and courage to put up a video!

-Andreas
User avatar
Andreas Engström
Brigadier
 
Posts: 1560
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 13:40
Location: Göteborg, Sweden

Re: Zwerchau

Postby Herbert » 24 Jan 2012 14:29

I don't want to go into all the Zwerchhau with a stick discussion but just note to the Zwerch in the video.
If the hilt is held so low and - judging by what I saw in the video - so little sideways pressure, the Zwerch is never going to work in real life.
The attacker may just strike "through" your Zwerch, hitting you on the head or shoulders. As Andreas said, put on some gear and really go for it. It will change your view.

What Gil-Galadh posted is a proper Zwerch, I would put even more sideways displacement in it (and wear gloves!).

Herbert
User avatar
Herbert
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 1023
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 09:40
Location: Austria

Re: Zwerchau

Postby B. Cross » 24 Jan 2012 14:38

We have done that zwerch many times with gear on and on full speed. I am talking about protection for hands, masks, elbows, gambeson, with steel and at full speed. It works just fine no matter the strength of the user. We are not only training with wooden wasters. It is just that for the shooting of the video we had only wood at hand. I am willing to do that zwerch against anyone who I am able to meet irl. What you may not notice is the fact that Alex is lowering his body when delivering the zwerch, and this is also one of the reason his Zwerch is not stuck to the ceiling.
Motvs, das worte schone, ist des fechtens eyn hort und krone.
User avatar
B. Cross
Corporal
 
Posts: 76
Joined: 15 Jan 2012 17:18
Location: Nottingham, UK / Sofia, Bulgaria

Re: Zwerchau

Postby Andreas Engström » 24 Jan 2012 15:02

Alex makes three attempts at the longsword zwerch in the video.

I would say that the second one is the best, and is really the only one where he lowers his body enough for it to possibly work at full speed and full intention. Although I probably would raise my hands a bit more I think that one looks quite OK.

The first one has a weird blade angle (which makes the parry weak) and is dangerously low. The third one is much too low to cover against both a full powered forced zorn and against the follow-up from the zorn. Think instant Zornhau-ort. What saves him is that the attacker freezes at first blade contact.

No attempt to force the zorn, no follow-up, no reason to worry => no reason to do the zwerch quite properly.

It's quite possible that when you put on more gear and go full speed with steel (and without instant paralysis at blade contact) you shape up and do it right the whole time. It's usually the case.

-Andreas
User avatar
Andreas Engström
Brigadier
 
Posts: 1560
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 13:40
Location: Göteborg, Sweden

PreviousNext

Return to Johannes Liechtenauer

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron