Transcribing/Translating some Mair

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Transcribing/Translating some Mair

Postby KeithFarrell » 08 Feb 2011 23:34

Image
http://www.slub-dresden.de/sammlungen/digitale-sammlungen/werkansicht/cache.off?id=5363&tx_dlf%5Bid%5D=7522&tx_dlf%5Bpage%5D=115

I have tried to transcribe this page a little, because I want to know what it says. I think it says something like this:

Item schicth dich allso inn den wechsel sree mit deinem linncken fuosz vor unnd streich mit deinnem schwert auffusein angsicht das dein kursze schneide oben stee unnd wind dein schwert an deinner linncken seiten mit Ereiszweisen hennden den ort zu seinnem fesicht inn dem volg mit deinnem rechten schenstel vin nach sotumpt im der ort doplet himein sfastu dan also inn dem wechsel gogen im das din rechter fuosz vor siat unnd du das zwifachen orts gerwar mirft fotru mit deinnem rechten schemcftel zu ructh unnd verscheub im den ort mit denner lanngen schneiden in dem wennd hein kurze schneid auf sein schwert trit mit deinem linncken fuosz vider himem und truck im sein schwert an deimen rechten arm fomagsty in schneiden zu der oben blossa segert er dich also zu schneiden so versetz im das mit dem Krumphau und schneid im dannt nack sein nemhaubt feszt er dir das ab so winnd dich inn das hanngentort das dein gehulz vor dei nem haubtstee Bolg mitt dem linncken fuosz hinnach und wind im den ort zwifach zu seinem glicht.

Assuming I'm somewhat close with my transcription of the caption, a (very!) rough translation would be something along the lines of:

Another technique also in the Changer. Stand with your left foot forward and stretch with your sword out and down to the sword with the short edge above. Stand and wind your sword to your left side with Ereißweisen [crossed?] hands, the point to his face ..... with your right ... after ... in the point .... . Also in the Changer against, stand with the right foot forward and twofold points .... with your right ... in the point with your long edge, wind the short edge from your sword against the left foot of him and twitch past his sword to his right arm .... the upper opening .... so displace him with the Crooked Strike and edge in his neck ... so you wind into the Hanging Point .... with your left foot behind, and wind in with the point twofold against his ....


So what I gather is that the position shown is the starting point for the Changer [Wechsel], and that it is used to sweep up into a defensive bind, from which one can wind offensively towards the opponent's face, neck or arms. It can also be the starting point for a Crooked Strike [Krumphau], and can be a good position for moving into the Hanging Guard [Hanngentort] for another defensive bind.

Can someone who actually understands German have a look at this and see if this makes any sense?
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Re: Transcribing/Translating some Mair

Postby Randall Pleasant » 09 Feb 2011 00:14

Keith

Thanks, I enjoying reading this. I agree that you English translation is saying to sweep up from Wechsel into a bind. The way your English translation reads to me I would say that the text is not saying that Wechsel is a place from which to do a Krump, rather it is saying to perform a Krump from the bind. But the older interpretation of the Krump cannot be performed from the bind, which I assume is why you think it must happen from Wechsel. However, John Clements' newer interpretation of the Krump can easily be performed from a bind and it will natually take you into a hanging point just as the text describes. Althought the text does not appear to mention it, don't overlook the footwork shown in the image, both men are clearly standing in the open position of the Scales with the feet spread at roughtly 135 degrees.

I also like that this image of "Wechsel" looks just like Fiore's "Boar's Tooth".

Again, thanks for this work.
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Re: Transcribing/Translating some Mair

Postby Andreas Engström » 09 Feb 2011 13:49

I posted a corrected transcription in the HEMAA forum, so I might just as well post it here too:

Item schickh dich allso inn den wechsel stee mit deinem linncken fuosz vor unnd streich mit deinnem schwert auf fur sein angsicht das dein kurtze schneid oben stee unnd wind dein schwert an deinner linncken seiten mit creutzweisen hennden den ort zu seinnem gesicht. Inn dem volg mit deinnem rechten schennckel hinnach so kumpt im der ort doplet hinnein. Sstastu dann also inn dem wechsel gogen im das dein rechter fuosz vor stat unnd du das zwifachen orts gewar wirst so trit mit deinnem rechten schennckel zu ruckh unnd verscheub im den ort mit deinner lanngen schneiden. In dem wennd dein kurtze schneid auf sein schwert trit mit deinem linncken fuosz vider hinnein und truckh im sein schwert an deinnen rechten arm so magstu in schneiden zu der oben plösse. Begert er dich also zu schneiden so versetz im das mit dem Krumphaw und schneid im damit nach sein nemhaubt setzt er dir das ab so winnd dich inn das hanngentort das dein gehulz vor deinem haubt stee. Volg mitt dem linncken fuosz hinnach und wind im den ort zwifach zu seinem gsicht.

Which makes slightly more sense. :-)

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Re: Transcribing/Translating some Mair

Postby KeithFarrell » 09 Feb 2011 22:21

Thanks Andreas. Indeed, your transcription does make more sense! I can almost follow what it says. Mine wasn't too far off - as you say, more practice is needed :-)
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Re: Transcribing/Translating some Mair

Postby KeithFarrell » 09 Feb 2011 22:26

Hey Randall, thanks for the compliment. Without meaning to sound argumentative (my apologies if it sounds that way), is this new Krumphau interpretation the same "new" interpretation that I have been hearing about for the last couple of years, or is this another newer interpretation that Clements has developed due to having access to more information and sources in recent months? I was reading one of the works by Jörg Wilhalm recently, and there was a section in there that I thought might be talking about striking a Krumphau from the bind, so perhaps it might be saying something similar to what you are suggesting :-)
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Re: Transcribing/Translating some Mair

Postby KeithFarrell » 10 Feb 2011 02:03

Another bit of transcription/translation:

Image
http://www.slub-dresden.de/sammlungen/digitale-sammlungen/werkansicht/cache.off?id=5363&tx_dlf%5Bid%5D=7522&tx_dlf%5Bpage%5D=119


Item schickh dich allso, stannd mit deinnem rechten fuosz vor dein schwert inn der flech das der ort gogen der erden stee hawt er dann den oberhaw auf dich fotrit mit deinnem linncken schenncken hinfur unnd fesz im den haw ab mit creutz weisen hennden mit lannger schneid stich im zu dem gesicht auf sem linncken seitten so winndstu dich inn das hanngent orth sticht er dir also zu deinnen gesicht unnd du mit dei nem rechten fuosz vor stuft sospzinng im mit deinnem linncken fuosz auf sein linncken seiten unnd sesz im dem[struck-through] den stich ab trit mit deinnem rechten fuosz auf wol auf sem rechte seiten unnd haw im behennd obert zu dem kopff versetzt er dir das so nimb den dopel haw mit ainnem. Ort unnd arbait im zu der nechsten blosse sucht er dir deinne blosse also so volg mit deinnem rechten schennckel hinnach henng unnd winnd gogen sennem haw foist im der haw versezt Indes haw im mit gecreiszgiten. Armen nach seinner rechten seiten sames fopffs.

Assuming I'm somewhat close with my transcription of the caption, a rough translation could be something along the lines of:

And do this also, stand with your right foot forwards, your sword ... with the point towards the ground. .... when the Oberhaw comes to you ... with your left leg behind and cut up with crossed hands with the long edge. If the technique comes in to your face from his left, you should wind into the Hanging Guard and you should also go for the face, and you should go with your right foot forward ... in with your left foot to his left side and do the technique, and go with your right foot if you want to his right side and strike in swiftly over to his head. If he displaces you then throw the double strike against him. Thrust and work in against the lower openings .... .... . Also with your right leg behind, hang and wind against him, cut to displace his cut Instantly, cut in with crossed wrists. The arms behind your right side ....

So, my initial feelings here are that if someone is standing in an overhead Vom Tag (so he can cut at you from both his right and his left from the one position), then you should drop from Pflug into this lower guard. From here, if he strikes to you from his right, do a crossed-hands cut (a Krumphau?) with the long edge, presumably up under the incoming strike? Or possibly this could be an offensive Henngentort on the left side, with crossed wrists, cutting up into the incoming strikes. If he strikes from his left then rise up into the Henngentort on your right to defend yourself then cut him to the head. If he manages to displace this cut of yours, then throw a double strike at him (perhaps Duplier to the nearest opening, or maybe just two separate strikes?). This hanging defence gives you good opportunity to work against his lower openings with your strikes, slices and thrusts, and you can do a lot of interesting things from there.

So although this position looks like some of the other Wechselhut illustrations, the term Wechsel is never actually used in the caption here, and so this is not an instance of a Wechselhau. Rather, it appears to be a position designed to tempt a head strike from the opponent, and from where one can quickly rise into a hanging guard and do something else from there.

Again, can someone who understands German properly have a look at this and see if this makes any sense?
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Re: Transcribing/Translating some Mair

Postby Randall Pleasant » 10 Feb 2011 07:22

Keith

I made sure to use the word "newer" rather than "new" but maybe I should have said "more newer". In any case, what I was trying to say is that John Clements' interpretation of the Krump is the latest that I know of. To the best of my knowledge, it is the only interpretation of the Krump that can be performed from the bind and it allows us to make all possible 16 cuts using only the master cuts. Most ARMA members do think this is the cut Jorg Wilhalm and other historical masters were describing. Again, thanks for you work.
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Re: Transcribing/Translating some Mair

Postby KeithFarrell » 10 Feb 2011 12:34

Thanks for clearing that up Randall, I didn't realise you guys had another newer interpretation. Are you able to share it with us, or is it still secret pending proper release at a later date?
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Re: Transcribing/Translating some Mair

Postby Randall Pleasant » 10 Feb 2011 18:02

KeithFarrell wrote:Thanks for clearing that up Randall, I didn't realise you guys had another newer interpretation. Are you able to share it with us, or is it still secret pending proper release at a later date?

Keith

John Clements interpretation of the Krump can be seen in the following video at around 6:18. Please note that this is indeed an Oberhau, i.e. the blade is falling. After watching the video you should be able see how this cut can be made from the bind discussed earlier to hit the arms and leave you in a good position to thrust into the lower body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov_iVrHy4_A
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Postby Colin F. » 10 Feb 2011 18:28

Thanks for posting the link Randall.

Interesting interpretation, I have seen similar, but not quite the same version, used by two other groups over here in the UK at FC last summer.

The two other groups used a slight step off line (to the right), in conjunction with the drop in weight that John shows. They also used it as an oberhau but with the arms going slightly to the left through a not-quite-but-almost-plowish position, ready to thrust and cut.

I'll see if I can find any examples on video.
Last edited by Colin F. on 10 Feb 2011 19:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Transcribing/Translating some Mair

Postby KeithFarrell » 10 Feb 2011 19:18

Thanks for sharing, Randall. I'm not too keen on the Krumphau variation shown at 6:18 - I'm sure it works nicely, I'm just not very keen on it myself! I do like the version at 6:25 however, that is how I train my Krumphau most frequently. Again, not so keen on the variation at 6:37, but I suppose that it would become comfortable enough given some fairly persistent practice.

The second of the three variations shown would certainly be effective coming from the Wechselhut as shown in the first image above, as the motion of the blade would Krumphau the incoming attack out of the way and would leave the lower openings exposed for a thrust. I'm not sure I follow your suggestion that the text tells us to get into the bind then Krumphau out from that, surely it is telling us to Krumphau into the bind in an offensive manner that happens to look like the second variation shown by Clements in the video clip you posted?
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