Source for a version of Vom Tag?

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Source for a version of Vom Tag?

Postby KeithFarrell » 20 Sep 2010 17:09

Hey all, I'm hoping someone can shed a bit of light for me. I'm currently working with one of the other instructors in the Academy of Historical Arts to write a study guide on the discipline of Liechtenauer's longsword for our members, and we are trying to make sure that we can find examples in the manuscripts for all of our statements about techniques and principles.

We see three versions of the Vom Tag guard in common practice: with the sword resting on the shoulder, with the sword held in the middle of the body above the head, and with the sword beside the head at a right angle to the ground. The first two versions of the guard can be seen in many of the manuscripts, but I can't find a picture showing the third version. I see it used often in videos by Hammaborg, and I know some of the other groups use this type of Vom Tag - does anyone know of a plate that shows this guard?

Any help will be greatly appreciated!
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Re: Source for a version of Vom Tag?

Postby KeithFarrell » 24 Sep 2010 10:41

I had almost given up hope of finding one of these vertical Vom Tag guards in an illustration, then accidentally stumbled across what might be the answer while looking for something else in a manuscript.

vom tag.jpg
(folio 58v, Codex Germ.1507, Paulus Kal, 1460 AD)
Screenshot from the facsimile of the manuscript, digitally reproduced by the Münchener DigitalisierungsZentrum and Bayerische StaatsBibliothek, with permission given to use the facsimile for personal or academic purposes.
vom tag.jpg (118.31 KiB) Viewed 4219 times


The figure on the right looks like he is holding a vertical high guard, and the caption I believe can be translated as "the fourth guard, Vom Tag". Does this figure show the high guard with the sword at the side of the head with the point vertically upwards? If so then I think my search has been successful.

I haven't done much research with Kal's work before. The illustrations are really quite good, certainly much better than in Wallerstein! I think I may have to do some more work with this manuscript in the near future.
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Re: Source for a version of Vom Tag?

Postby Andreas Engström » 24 Sep 2010 12:38

Keith, the Kal image shows a very odd Vom Tag, the likes of which I have yet to see any modern practitioner anywhere ever use. Interestingly it corresponds very well to the description of Vom Tag of the idiosyncratic Hans Medel.. thanks for pointing it out to me!

Here's an image from the Glasgow manuscript (which contains an incomplete, but illustrated, edition of Ringeck) that I think shows what you're after. It's the illustration beneath the text that describes Vom Tag and Alber. Note the very chic alphabet-suit. :-)

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Re: Source for a version of Vom Tag?

Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 24 Sep 2010 13:45

KeithFarrell wrote:I had almost given up hope of finding one of these vertical Vom Tag guards in an illustration, then accidentally stumbled across what might be the answer while looking for something else in a manuscript.

vom tag.jpg


The figure on the right looks like he is holding a vertical high guard, and the caption I believe can be translated as "the fourth guard, Vom Tag". Does this figure show the high guard with the sword at the side of the head with the point vertically upwards? If so then I think my search has been successful.

I haven't done much research with Kal's work before. The illustrations are really quite good, certainly much better than in Wallerstein! I think I may have to do some more work with this manuscript in the near future.

Kal has illustrations of terrific quality - nevertheless I find siome of them anatomicaly odd......
Anyway, just one minor correction: The comment says (for the left guy): "die dritte hute hayst der Alber" = "The third guard is called the alber";
"Die vierd hayst vom tage" = "the fourth is called vom Tag".
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Re: Source for a version of Vom Tag?

Postby KeithFarrell » 24 Sep 2010 13:55

Tack så mycket, Andreas :-) and I'm glad I found something of interest to you as well.

That is a good image from the Glasgow manuscript, precisely what I was looking for. However, I cannot find a decent quality facsimile or reproduction of the manuscript. Do you have an electronic copy from which you drew this image, or do you know where I might be able to find one?
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Re: Source for a version of Vom Tag?

Postby KeithFarrell » 24 Sep 2010 13:57

Thanks for the correction, Wolfgang. I started out with pretty much no knowledge of German, but as I'm studying these manuscripts and their translations I'm beginning to pick up words here and there. Any help or pointers are most welcome.
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Re: Source for a version of Vom Tag?

Postby Michael Chidester » 24 Sep 2010 18:00

KeithFarrell wrote:That is a good image from the Glasgow manuscript, precisely what I was looking for. However, I cannot find a decent quality facsimile or reproduction of the manuscript. Do you have an electronic copy from which you drew this image, or do you know where I might be able to find one?

You can find the images from Ringeck's Bloszfechten on this page: http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Sigmund_von_Ein_Ringeck
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Re: Source for a version of Vom Tag?

Postby KeithFarrell » 24 Sep 2010 18:57

Michael Chidester wrote:You can find the images from Ringeck's Bloszfechten on this page: http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Sigmund_von_Ein_Ringeck


Superb, thank you!
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Re: Source for a version of Vom Tag?

Postby KeithFarrell » 25 Sep 2010 15:29

I have been looking at the different manuscripts by Paulus Kal, and noticed something interesting about his depictions of the Vom Tag guard.

MS 1825 - 14v.jpg
MS 1825, folio 14v, Paulus Kal, 1458 AD.
MS 1825 - 14v.jpg (56.28 KiB) Viewed 4156 times

This image from the earliest of these manuscripts looks like the Vom Tag is beside the head as opposed to holding it in front of the head.



CGM 1507 58v.jpg
CGM 1507, folio 58v, Paulus Kal, 1460 AD.
CGM 1507 58v.jpg (145.57 KiB) Viewed 4156 times

This image from the middle of the these manuscripts looks more like the Vom Tag is in front of the body and at forehead height, with a vertical blade.



S 554 16r.jpg
Codex S 554, folio 16r, Paulus Kal, 1506 AD.
S 554 16r.jpg (85.27 KiB) Viewed 4156 times

This image from the latest of these manuscripts looks more like the Vom Tag is just in front of the face but pushed as high as possible. Also this is Kal's only depiction of the guard with the left leg forward: the other depictions show the right leg forward, which is not what we are told to do by other masters such as Ringeck (MS Dresd. C487) for example: "Hold it this way: stand with the left foot forwards, and hold your sword at your right shoulder. Or hold it with outstretched arms above your head." The depiction in this manuscript seems to match better what we are told in other manuscripts, but the previous two depictions are definitely different from this one.

In each of these cases, the figure is preceded by three other figures showing Ochs, Pflug and Alber. These guards look very similar across Kal's different manuscripts, but I did notice that the Vom Tag does change quite radically in how it is shown. Has anyone else noticed this before?
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