Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Open to public view.

Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Michael Edelson » 25 Feb 2010 05:25

Hi all,

I have a question for all of the European groups that practice Liechtenauer. In general, how much effort do you guys put into the weapons besides the longsword (spear, poleaxe, etc.,) and wrestling? Also, how much time do you spend wrestling and wrestling at the sword vs pure sword work?

I realize every group is likely to have a different answer, and that is part of what I'm looking for. The other part is a general overview of the trends on your side of the pond.
User avatar
Michael Edelson
Corporal
 
Posts: 64
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 01:16

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Anders Linnard » 25 Feb 2010 08:31

We now have a separate study group for spear and pole weapons. We separate between classes and study groups, and the purpose of the latter is to have a group grow enough skill to be up to par with the standard we have for teachers and classes. Once they are approved to start a class, they will most likely start off with one or two sessions a week.

In November or December we have a one-two months long wrestling class, three days a week. We might change that down the road. During this period we focus entirely on ringen.

Sword and buckler is a separate class, running 2 times a week (I think).

We do very little wrestling at the sword. But the time we spend is about equivalent to the time Ringeck spends on it. I also feel that the foundation for sword wrestling is unarmed wrestling.

/Anders
Last edited by Anders Linnard on 25 Feb 2010 09:36, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Anders Linnard
General
 
Posts: 3410
Joined: 14 Mar 2006 21:06
Location: Gothenburg

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Herbert » 25 Feb 2010 09:21

We do as much sword & buckler as we do longsword. In fact slightly more sword & buckler at the moment.

Unfortunately we don't do very much grappling which is my fault.

Herbert
User avatar
Herbert
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 1024
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 09:40
Location: Austria

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Stahlberg » 25 Feb 2010 09:38

Hi Michael

My group may be a bit of an odd-man-out in this regard (we went through some greater changes with regard to style and chief instructor almost two years ago and that changed a lot), but I'll give our perspective anyway.

First off, we have four sessions spread over two days (Tue. and Thi.). We focus on getting the longsword right first. And, since we changed to Liechtenauer not too long ago, the longsword, our core activity, takes up a lot of time. However, we still work with the dagger quite often and try to make ringen a part of our training. I'm happy with the dagger work so far (we've adopted a pretty nice approach to it in our training and work it intelligently), but the ringen part has taken on the form of warm up exercises :( (mostly just the basic stuff, that is).

Poleaxe and spear, however, have lain dormant for the better part of two years now. It's a shame really, but there simply hasn't been time to develope those aspects yet. The limitation lies with me and my co-instructor - we're not going to do it half way and so we haven't done it at all. (What we got is Fiorian poleaxe and spear, but not any German stuff, just yet.) Hopefully, this can change in the future.

We also used to do Highland Regimental Broadsword, but that has been put on hold as well. Like I said, we may not really be representative due to the re-ordering of our entire martial universe. We changed from Fiore to the dark side of the force and became Sith-Liechtenauerians. :twisted:

There you have it!/
Andreas
Stahlberg
Corporal
 
Posts: 49
Joined: 13 Nov 2009 13:58

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 25 Feb 2010 10:54

Zornhau has four training days at the moment:
Monday - wrestling and dagger, ca. 2 hours;
Tuesday - single handed weapons (messer, single sword, lately sword & buckler), ca. 2 hours;
Friday - longsword, ca. 2 hours;
Sunday - beginners (longsword), study groups, advanced longsword, ca. 2 hours each, starting from 14.00 - 20.00.

We still focus pretty much on the longsword. We did a training-schedule covering the whole longsword teachings in Lichtenauer-tradition, including wrestling on the sword as well as armoured combat.
That was about 18 months. We evaluated it, changed some parts and are in a second row at the moment.

Friday training session is reserved for that, as well as the advanced training session on sundays which usually goes more into detail with the subjects of friday training.

We had and have several study groups of different interests, at the moment it's staff and poleaxe and another one with rapier.

We usually have at least two internal workshop-weekends where we cover some more "odd" stuff.
Wolfgang Ritter
Captain
 
Posts: 677
Joined: 17 Mar 2006 12:23
Location: hovering in nirvana

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Harry » 25 Feb 2010 13:18

monday: langes messer (at the moment) 2,5 hours
tuesday: free sparring
wednesday: langes messer and langes schwert 3 hours
thursday: langes schwert beginners class 2,5 hours
friday: free sparring and experimenting day for wrestling and dagger


we have every year a "special" weapon... this year it is the messer, last year it was the dagger, next year it will be wrestling.... most of the time nicolaas petters and ott.
MC-Stats (Won/Lost/Fought/Open: 2/2/4/4)

"Take away all his weapons and than kick him in the ass" - Free Translation from the Viennese Gladiatoria
User avatar
Harry
Colonel
 
Posts: 1317
Joined: 20 Mar 2006 13:47

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Harry » 25 Feb 2010 13:18

monday: langes messer (at the moment) 2,5 hours
tuesday: free sparring
wednesday: langes messer and langes schwert 3 hours
thursday: langes schwert beginners class 2,5 hours
friday: free sparring and experimenting day for wrestling and dagger


we have every year a "special" weapon... this year it is the messer, last year it was the dagger, next year it will be wrestling.... most of the time nicolaas petters and ott.
MC-Stats (Won/Lost/Fought/Open: 2/2/4/4)

"Take away all his weapons and than kick him in the ass" - Free Translation from the Viennese Gladiatoria
User avatar
Harry
Colonel
 
Posts: 1317
Joined: 20 Mar 2006 13:47

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Michael Edelson » 25 Feb 2010 13:51

Thanks for all the answers! Keep them coming, please.

One thing I find very, very interesting is that a lot of you guys meet many times a week. This is relatively rare here in the states, at least as far as I'm aware. The average group meets once or twice a week.

I wonder what it is that facilitates having so many practice sessions. With us (NYHFA) the limitation is travel. People travel for an hour or more to get to class, so doing it on weeknights is not practical, forcing us to be limited to weekends. I've long tried to schedule more practice sessions, but not enough people have been able to attend to make it worthwhile. Even if this were not so, I don't see more than two training sessions a week as being practical for us.
User avatar
Michael Edelson
Corporal
 
Posts: 64
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 01:16

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Anders Linnard » 25 Feb 2010 15:09

Michael Edelson wrote:Thanks for all the answers! Keep them coming, please.

One thing I find very, very interesting is that a lot of you guys meet many times a week. This is relatively rare here in the states, at least as far as I'm aware. The average group meets once or twice a week.

I wonder what it is that facilitates having so many practice sessions. With us (NYHFA) the limitation is travel. People travel for an hour or more to get to class, so doing it on weeknights is not practical, forcing us to be limited to weekends. I've long tried to schedule more practice sessions, but not enough people have been able to attend to make it worthwhile. Even if this were not so, I don't see more than two training sessions a week as being practical for us.


Aren't you in New York? Should be plenty of people to fill classes every day of the week. There must be plenty of clubs doing other sports that have sessions every day, ask them how they manage. We have people who travel from quite far away to join our training.
/Anders
User avatar
Anders Linnard
General
 
Posts: 3410
Joined: 14 Mar 2006 21:06
Location: Gothenburg

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Motley » 25 Feb 2010 15:32

New York state is not New York City. When I first moved over this side of the pond I was surprised just how *far* away everything is.

Here in Ottawa for instance, AEMMA in Toronto is 5 hours drive away and there really is not much in between but trees and lakes. New York state (what little I have seen of it) is not that much different. There is a whole lot of 'rural'.
Dan Sellars
Context is everything
User avatar
Motley
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 2566
Joined: 20 Jan 2008 17:04
Location: Great White North

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Michael Edelson » 25 Feb 2010 15:37

Hi Anders,

I don't think the perception is the same here. HEMA is not exactly understood or accepted by the general public. There is, as far as I'm aware, only one other school doing HEMA in all of NYC (unless you count classical fencing as HEMA, then there is also Martinez), run by David James Knight.

Young athletic types here play football and work out in gyms, they don't generally do any sort of fencing. Even martial arts, as in the Eastern kind, is not as popular here as you would think. Some of the top JSA names, for instance, have to either rent floor space from Karate dojos (and the like) or share locations among several schools/teachers.

One of you, in another thread (Tobler vs Hayes, I think) mentioned that his group had a 100 members. That is absolutely unfathomable to me.

We, NYHFA, operate free of any trappings that might scare people away (no historical clothing, etc.). I run it like a martial arts school, based on my experience in the Japanese arts, and while we could stand to advertise, we have very few members (12 now I think) compared to most of you guys.
User avatar
Michael Edelson
Corporal
 
Posts: 64
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 01:16

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Michael Edelson » 25 Feb 2010 15:38

Motley wrote:New York state is not New York City. When I first moved over this side of the pond I was surprised just how *far* away everything is.

Here in Ottawa for instance, AEMMA in Toronto is 5 hours drive away and there really is not much in between but trees and lakes. New York state (what little I have seen of it) is not that much different. There is a whole lot of 'rural'.


Hi Dan,

I'm afraid we don't have that excuse. :) We are in NYC.

However, our members come from all five boroughs, and it can take 2 hours by train to reach Brooklyn from Queens, and trains run slower at night and on weekends.
User avatar
Michael Edelson
Corporal
 
Posts: 64
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 01:16

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Matclarke » 25 Feb 2010 15:42

Motley wrote:New York state is not New York City. When I first moved over this side of the pond I was surprised just how *far* away everything is.



We've got a similar situation as the North American people. 1-2 nights training a week, with people often driving +1hr.

The difference is at least partly due to the distances we must travel here and perhaps differences in public transport.

I think the mindset Europeans have to the art is another factor. At least here in Australia it is still often derided as a 're-enactor nerd' activity which fails to attract the young (no family commitments!), fit, motivated people.
Matclarke
Colonel
 
Posts: 1460
Joined: 21 Jul 2006 17:51

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Anders Linnard » 25 Feb 2010 16:01

We have actively been working to improve what people think of us and we are also actively recruiting. I am guessing the main reasons for not attracting members is that people simply don't know about you. You have a recruitment base that is bigger than the population of Sweden :)

/Anders
User avatar
Anders Linnard
General
 
Posts: 3410
Joined: 14 Mar 2006 21:06
Location: Gothenburg

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Motley » 25 Feb 2010 16:09

Michael Edelson wrote:
Motley wrote:New York state is not New York City. When I first moved over this side of the pond I was surprised just how *far* away everything is.

Here in Ottawa for instance, AEMMA in Toronto is 5 hours drive away and there really is not much in between but trees and lakes. New York state (what little I have seen of it) is not that much different. There is a whole lot of 'rural'.


Hi Dan,

I'm afraid we don't have that excuse. :) We are in NYC.

However, our members come from all five boroughs, and it can take 2 hours by train to reach Brooklyn from Queens, and trains run slower at night and on weekends.


Ah :oops: I thought you were a little more out of the way than that.

Also Michael, it is good to see you posting here, I hope you stick around :-)
Dan Sellars
Context is everything
User avatar
Motley
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 2566
Joined: 20 Jan 2008 17:04
Location: Great White North

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Motley » 25 Feb 2010 16:15

This is a little off topic here but one thing that constantly surprises me is that in Ottawa, which is really just a small town, we can support 3 different groups. Us, Les Maitres d'Arms and another group studying I.33. We currently have more people than we can fit in our hall and once of our guys has also started a separate night, so I guess that makes 4. We also don't seem to be stepping on each others toes either, I think LMdA have a large regular class size.

We as a group don't advertise, in fact until recently we were closed and turn in people away. I don't know about the others.
Dan Sellars
Context is everything
User avatar
Motley
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 2566
Joined: 20 Jan 2008 17:04
Location: Great White North

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Michael Edelson » 25 Feb 2010 16:27

Motley wrote:Also Michael, it is good to see you posting here, I hope you stick around :-)


Thanks Dan, I hope to do so as well.

Anders Linnard wrote:You have a recruitment base that is bigger than the population of Sweden :)


lol :) Yeah, I guess we do. There's a dangerous area where number of memebrs is too much for cheap floorspace and not enought to afford better. I am at this level now, and have been afraid to push for more. One big problem with NYC is that renting space is hideously expensive. I know people in other parts of the country who rent, exclusively, an entire large space for what we pay for 3 hours a week for a small room in a gym.
Last edited by Michael Edelson on 25 Feb 2010 20:04, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Michael Edelson
Corporal
 
Posts: 64
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 01:16

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Steven H » 25 Feb 2010 19:51

Michael Edelson wrote: I know people in other parts of the country who rent, exclusively, an entire large space for what we pay for 3 hours a week for a small room in a gym.


I know that feeling, up here in Boston.

The Boston area though maintains four different groups (if you include almost to New Hampshire as still Boston). I've been working hard at advertising and it hasn't paid off a whole lot yet. We do faire's and conventions but I really want to do more mainstream events.

Cheers,
Steven
Kunstbruder Boston area Lichtenauer Longsword
Fight with All Your Strength - a blog of Physical Training and Biomechanics for Swordplay and other Combat Sports and Martial Arts
Steven H
Sergeant
 
Posts: 122
Joined: 23 Dec 2007 06:15
Location: Bostonish

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Reinier » 26 Feb 2010 08:10

Another question now that the discussion has been digressing anyway;

(@GHFS, Zornhau, Dreynschlag etc) Do all your members participate in all training, or is that just what the group offers, and do different members participate in different parts? In the latter case; how many training sessions does your average member participate in per week?
…en A alſoo liggende kan aen B, ſonder eenigh beletſel, met de zijde van ſijn hooft, op het aengeſicht van B, ſoo veel ſtoten als hy begeert. – Nicolaes Petter, 1674.

http://www.bruchius.com/
List of publications
User avatar
Reinier
Major
 
Posts: 853
Joined: 12 May 2009 16:37
Location: Rhoon

Re: Question for European Liechtenauer groups

Postby Anders Linnard » 26 Feb 2010 08:52

Reinier wrote:Another question now that the discussion has been digressing anyway;

(@GHFS, Zornhau, Dreynschlag etc) Do all your members participate in all training, or is that just what the group offers, and do different members participate in different parts? In the latter case; how many training sessions does your average member participate in per week?


Most people do not attend all sessions. I would guess that the average member trains 2 times a week at the club, but I wouldn't know exactly. But that doesn't really say much about how much people train. I train 3 days a week at the gym and 3 sessions of fencing. I am trying to cram in some extra time for extra MA classes, but it's a bit hard timwewise
/Anders
User avatar
Anders Linnard
General
 
Posts: 3410
Joined: 14 Mar 2006 21:06
Location: Gothenburg

Next

Return to Johannes Liechtenauer Lineage

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron