Absetzen, Versetzen, Vier Versetzen?

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Absetzen, Versetzen, Vier Versetzen?

Postby Lord_Nelle » 22 Jan 2010 08:37

This is something that I often find different interpretations of.

This what I think.

Absetzen - The use of ochs and pflugh do break an incoming attack by placing your point on target. Deflecting and stabbing in the same move.

Versetzen - The use of cuts to break an incoming attack, or the use of a cut against on oponents blade to get an opening. Like the sweeps in Ringeck.

Vier versetzen - The use of meisterhauen to get an advantageous vorschlagh against a perticilar guard. Schwerhau give you an advantage agains vom tach, Scheitelhau gives and advantage against alber etc etc.

What do you think?
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Re: Absetzen, Versetzen, Vier Versetzen?

Postby Andreas Engström » 22 Jan 2010 10:54

We've already discussed this, so I think you know that I almost agree with you. :-)

The main difference is that I think that "Versetzen" is a more general term than you define above. I'd say that a Versatzung is any sort of parry, good or bad, static or dynamic.

Absetzen is a special subcategory of "good" Versetzen, defined just as you did (although I wouldn't quite say that you use Ochs and Pflug but rather that you're using the Vier Hengen, which are more extended than Ochs and Pflug).

The meisterhawe/verborgne hawe is another special subcategory of "good" Versetzen.

So, since the meisterhawe are all also Versetzen I think this may be the reason that the "Vier Versetzen" are called that even though they're not really Versetzen when used to break the opponent's guard (unless you count them as a sort of "preemptive parries"). If that makes sense. :-)

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Re: Absetzen, Versetzen, Vier Versetzen?

Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 22 Jan 2010 12:58

Andreas Engström wrote:We've already discussed this, so I think you know that I almost agree with you. :-)

The main difference is that I think that "Versetzen" is a more general term than you define above. I'd say that a Versatzung is any sort of parry, good or bad, static or dynamic.

Absetzen is a special subcategory of "good" Versetzen, defined just as you did (although I wouldn't quite say that you use Ochs and Pflug but rather that you're using the Vier Hengen, which are more extended than Ochs and Pflug).

The meisterhawe/verborgne hawe is another special subcategory of "good" Versetzen.

So, since the meisterhawe are all also Versetzen I think this may be the reason that the "Vier Versetzen" are called that even though they're not really Versetzen when used to break the opponent's guard (unless you count them as a sort of "preemptive parries"). If that makes sense. :-)

-Andreas

Yes. Simple as that, good explanation.
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Re: Absetzen, Versetzen, Vier Versetzen?

Postby Lord_Nelle » 22 Jan 2010 22:38

Andreas Engström wrote:We've already discussed this, so I think you know that I almost agree with you. :-)

The main difference is that I think that "Versetzen" is a more general term than you define above. I'd say that a Versatzung is any sort of parry, good or bad, static or dynamic.

Absetzen is a special subcategory of "good" Versetzen, defined just as you did (although I wouldn't quite say that you use Ochs and Pflug but rather that you're using the Vier Hengen, which are more extended than Ochs and Pflug).

The meisterhawe/verborgne hawe is another special subcategory of "good" Versetzen.

So, since the meisterhawe are all also Versetzen I think this may be the reason that the "Vier Versetzen" are called that even though they're not really Versetzen when used to break the opponent's guard (unless you count them as a sort of "preemptive parries"). If that makes sense. :-)

-Andreas


So that would make the use of a defensive cut a versetzen, right?
I´m searching for terms to use when asked by students.
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Re: Absetzen, Versetzen, Vier Versetzen?

Postby Martin Wallgren » 22 Jan 2010 23:38

Yes! Everything with an intetion to deflect is a versetzen if we agree on the use of the terms as above (and I do).
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Re: Absetzen, Versetzen, Vier Versetzen?

Postby Lord_Nelle » 23 Jan 2010 10:34

Martin Wallgren wrote:Yes! Everything with an intetion to deflect is a versetzen if we agree on the use of the terms as above (and I do).


Well, thats what we have done so far. I was just checking to see what other opions was out there.
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Re: Absetzen, Versetzen, Vier Versetzen?

Postby Martin Wallgren » 23 Jan 2010 18:42

Yes wi have , because we are great! Good of you to do a reality check for us here but se already knew we kn ow everfing didn´t we :twisted: 8) 8)
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Re: Absetzen, Versetzen, Vier Versetzen?

Postby bigdummy » 23 Jan 2010 23:12

So if you did a krumph against a zwerch would that be a versetzen?

Also, we seem to find absetzen works two ways, either bind and go to long point (more aggressive) or bind and tighten into solid ochs / pflug, (more safe - better against a closing opponent).

Thoughts on that?

Also what drills do you like to do for absetzen? We have one I like.

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Re: Absetzen, Versetzen, Vier Versetzen?

Postby Harry » 24 Jan 2010 09:19

versetzen is not necassarily a defense cut!!!!

versetzen just means to deflect the opponents attack... it need not to be defense.... e.g. zwerch against oberhau... it is a versetzen and an attack


funny thing is, that the word versetzen today has 180° different meaning... todays meaning is... to give somebody a hit :)
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Re: Absetzen, Versetzen, Vier Versetzen?

Postby Lord_Nelle » 24 Jan 2010 10:14

What I´m searching for is the correct word the use of cuts to break an incoming attack, or the use of a cut against on oponents blade to get an opening.

The word we have been using is versetzen, because we havn´t found a better one.

Since we have quite a few beginners we felt the need to clear a few thing up so they don´t get confused.
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Re: Absetzen, Versetzen, Vier Versetzen?

Postby Lord_Nelle » 24 Jan 2010 10:25

bigdummy wrote:Also what drills do you like to do for absetzen? We have one I like.

BD


Well, we use one with different difficulties.

At beginner level they work in pairs and with predetermined cuts, for example oberhau.

The one that cuts, trains his vorschlagh and tries to hit the defender, the defender tries to defend with an absetzen.

We build on this so in the experienced group the defender is attacked by the entire class, one at a time, and they can attack with any cut they like. This can further be built on so the defender tries to hit with the thrust after the absetzen.
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Re: Absetzen, Versetzen, Vier Versetzen?

Postby Harry » 25 Jan 2010 09:29

Lord_Nelle wrote:What I´m searching for is the correct word the use of cuts to break an incoming attack, or the use of a cut against on oponents blade to get an opening.

The word we have been using is versetzen, because we havn´t found a better one.

Since we have quite a few beginners we felt the need to clear a few thing up so they don´t get confused.



the word you are looking for is "schirmschlag"
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Re: Absetzen, Versetzen, Vier Versetzen?

Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 25 Jan 2010 10:38

As Harry already stated, a Versetzen doesn't have to be just a defensive cut. The "hidden strikes" like zwerch, krump etc. are in use to deflect an attack, yet in the meantime of the (defensive) moment of deflecting the blow, they put a threat against your opponent.
Versetzen is just the general term for an (re)action against an attack, the way it can be performed differs, as has been pointed out already.
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Re: Absetzen, Versetzen, Vier Versetzen?

Postby Peter S » 25 Jan 2010 11:24

I'd believed versetzen implied you dealt with the opponent's attack and made one of your own in single time, while absetzen was the use of a guard to defend, with an attack in the nach.
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Re: Absetzen, Versetzen, Vier Versetzen?

Postby Wolfgang Ritter » 25 Jan 2010 11:38

Peter S wrote:I'd believed versetzen implied you dealt with the opponent's attack and made one of your own in single time, while absetzen was the use of a guard to defend, with an attack in the nach.
No. Versetzen is the general term, then the term is used in various meanings in the manuals.
One possible variation (and the one advocated by the masters) is to use a hidden strike or any other technique which htreatens/hits the opponent while you deflect or guard yourself against the initial attack of your opponent.
The "Absetzen" is another special variation used to deflect (= versetzen) an attack. Apart from that, IMO a guard should NOT be regarded as a static posture. For my understanding guards describe starting, transitional and ending positions, you shouldn't lay yourself in a guard and wait what's happening. The guards sort of simply happen when using the Lichtenauer techniques
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Re: Absetzen, Versetzen, Vier Versetzen?

Postby Harry » 25 Jan 2010 13:13

you have 4 absetzen:

lower thrusts left and right: you do here the absetzen from pflug left to right or from pflug left to ochs right and vice versa


higher cuts (oberhau e.g.) left and right: you do here the absetzen from pflug to ochs.


absetzen means, that you close the distance while he is attacking you in the above mentioned way and you hit your opponent immediately with a thrust in the head or the chest. (i prefer the should joint area)
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