Joerg Wilhalm's buckler

Liechtenauer lineage and related sources (eg. Sigmund Ringeck, Peter von Danzig, Paulus Kal, Hans Talhoffer), interpretation and practice. Open to public view.

Joerg Wilhalm's buckler

Postby MugginsToadwort » 17 Aug 2009 12:01

So, we're doing some highly experimental sword and buckler work, mainly focused on looking at the links between numerous different manuscripts. Messing around really, trying to work out what is lacking from the Joburg group's I.33 interpretation.

Anyhow, I've heard mention of a manuscript under Joerg Wilhalm's (sorry about the umlaut) name. I simply cannot find the manuscript in question. I've found two illustrated manuals of armoured combat (Cod. 1.6.2.3 and Cod. 1.6.2.4), and one interesting manuscript on longsword (Cod 1.6.2.5- with something else bound into the back...), but no buckler work. ARMA lists a few other manuscripts, but I can seem to get hold of them. Can anybody help with this? Really would like to look at the buckler stuff.
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Postby Ilkka Hartikainen » 17 Aug 2009 12:18

PM Sent.
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Postby Roland Warzecha » 17 Aug 2009 12:49

Dierk's list of Fechtbücher contains five manuscripts attributed to Jörg Wilhalm.

The one in question is CGM 3712. Its last section deals with sword & buckler fighting. There are a number of rather crude b/w drawings, no text to go with them. Some of the pictures show a striking resemblance to plates from PH Mair. So either one copied from the other or they drew their information from the same source or sources. It is very likely that either I.33 or a similar source was known to them.

The costumes shown in the CGM 3712 plates are clearly not contemporary. The manuscript dates from 1556 while the clothing of some of the fencers looks more like medieval costume. There are also some bizarre drawings in the buckler section like a man in a bath tub with a small club and a woman wielding a veil of some sort. The latter reminds of medieval judicial fights between man and woman where the man has to fight from a pit as seen in Paulus Kal.
I found the pictures somewhat carnevalesque and have often wondered if they were sketches for a demonstration of medieval fighting - just like we do today! Wilhalm and Mair were the first to reconstruct historical martial arts, after all.

So, while Mair and Wilhalm lived at a time when people were still actively using blades and poleweapons etc., we have to be cautious as some of their material may already contain reconstructions! I think this may particularly be true for some of their buckler stuff.

All the best,
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Postby MugginsToadwort » 18 Aug 2009 15:46

I'm a little worried that all these manuscripts are attributed to Wilhalm. The Cod 1.6.2.5 is very different to the others in layout, and the amount of text clearly separates it from the other two manuscripts. What do we actually know about Wilhalm? I'd really like to see the other two manuscripts to check the differences...
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Postby Andreas Engström » 18 Aug 2009 17:52

Hm, where have you seen I.6.2.5 (or part thereof) ascribed to Jörg Wilhalm? I transcribed the fechtbuch part of that manuscript recently, and as far as I know it is a manuscript from 1539 by an unknown author, possibly a student of the master Hans Medel from Salzburg. It was bought by Mair and bound together with some other stuff. For more details see

http://ghfs.se/Texter/CodexI625HansMede ... fault.aspx

As far as I know, it has no connection at all with Wilhalm.

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Postby MugginsToadwort » 19 Aug 2009 06:52

Andreas Engström wrote:Hm, where have you seen I.6.2.5 (or part thereof) ascribed to Jörg Wilhalm? I transcribed the fechtbuch part of that manuscript recently, and as far as I know it is a manuscript from 1539 by an unknown author, possibly a student of the master Hans Medel from Salzburg. It was bought by Mair and bound together with some other stuff. For more details see

http://ghfs.se/Texter/CodexI625HansMede ... fault.aspx

As far as I know, it has no connection at all with Wilhalm.

-Andreas


Just discovered the Augsburg library has lead me astray- listed on Dierk Hagedorn's list of manuscripts as by Jorg Wilhalm is Cod.I.6.4.5., so when I looked at Cod.I.6.2.3 and Cod.I.6.2.2 and found Cod.I.6.2.5, I thought that was the 3rd Wilhalm book...

Thanks for the info- I stand corrected...
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Postby Andreas Engström » 19 Aug 2009 08:11

MugginsToadwort wrote:Thanks for the info

You're welcome. These darned manuscript numbers can be very confusing, being so similar. Sometimes one wishes for less systematic and more fanciful titles. :-)

-Andreas
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Postby MugginsToadwort » 19 Aug 2009 08:49

Andreas Engström wrote:
MugginsToadwort wrote:Thanks for the info

You're welcome. These darned manuscript numbers can be very confusing, being so similar. Sometimes one wishes for less systematic and more fanciful titles. :-)

-Andreas


Anyhow, I've now discovered the Medel manuscript, and you are right- it looks interesting. How's your english Translation coming along? I'm getting better with German, but it'd take me a while just to find time to work on it.
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Postby Andreas Engström » 19 Aug 2009 09:53

Unfortunately, finding time has been an issue for me too. :-( I was overly optimistic when I thought I was going to have time starting on a translation immediately. Hopefully, I'll be able to work on it soon.

-Andreas
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Re: Joerg Wilhalm's buckler

Postby Michael Chidester » 23 Sep 2011 06:32

I've pulled together some information on the sword and buckler plates previously attributed to Wilhalm here: http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Lutegerus
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