Talhoffer's hand cutting

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Talhoffer's hand cutting

Postby Vive la France ! » 29 Jun 2006 12:44

Hello,

I do not understand the (supposed) sequence wher Talhoffer show how to cut a hand after drawing the messer.
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I don't see how he can cut with the false edge with the hand so high, especially if he start directly from the scabbard. I tried to reproduce this move, it's really awkward, i don't see how one can cut a hand like this, the speed of the blade is to slow. Maybe we can make a schnidt, but a clear cut like this !?!
What do you think about it ?
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Postby J Marwood » 29 Jun 2006 12:47

Is he not cutting with the front edge? Moving from left to right and up, as he draws?
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Postby Vive la France ! » 29 Jun 2006 12:48

He should, but the pictures clearly show he don't !
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Postby J Marwood » 29 Jun 2006 12:51

I disagree.

Hold the weapon in it's scabbard on the lft hand side.

Draw upwards and pass backwards with the right foot, cutting across your body.
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Postby Fab » 29 Jun 2006 13:03

I agree it is more likely a true edge cut.
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Postby the_last_alive » 29 Jun 2006 13:04

The opponents hand is between your sword and your body as you draw you blade up, looking at it.

So it makes sense to be a false edge cut.
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Postby J Marwood » 29 Jun 2006 13:08

I'm not sure how far forward the opponents hand is makes a difference - can you explain more?
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Postby Vive la France ! » 29 Jun 2006 13:23

It's maybe not clear enough in this little picture, look at this one Image
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Postby J Marwood » 29 Jun 2006 13:34

Ah - that does look more like the back edge. Is the weapon definately a messer? Looks like an arming sword...
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Postby Vive la France ! » 29 Jun 2006 13:36

It is called a messer but it is definitely a sword :)
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Postby admin » 29 Jun 2006 13:38

IMHO that's a normal sword, not a messer - not that it makes much of a difference.
And IMHO it is a true edge cut exiting the wrist.
http://www.antique-swords.co.uk/

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Postby Vive la France ! » 29 Jun 2006 13:56

admin wrote:IMHO that's a normal sword, not a messer - not that it makes much of a difference.
And IMHO it is a true edge cut exiting the wrist.

Thanks Matt !!!

I did not think it could have been a cut exiting the wrist from that side :oops:
Now that you mention it, it is a movement much more logical, where you can have enough power, though now the feet movements are not that logical.
If i had to cut from right to left, he would have been more likely on the other side of his opponent, no ?
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Postby admin » 29 Jun 2006 14:00

Well the attacker should be right foot forward, as he swung from the right, but he is left foot forward, so I guess he took another step with his left foot after his hand started coming off.. and maybe that leads to this strange angle?
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Postby MugginsToadwort » 29 Jun 2006 14:44

I agree with Matt, that is a true edge shot leaving the hand. The move shown would be considered a "shock strike" in Leckuckner and German messer terminology, and is generally a pre-emptive hit at the opponent's arm. It can be done with the front or back edge, according to need.

Incidentally, the 1459 Talhoffer has no messer section per say, but does show messer and buckler where 1467 shows sword and buckler, and shows some of the 1467 messer moves with the buckler in hand. 1467 is the better messer source...
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Postby Carlo » 29 Jun 2006 22:04

Michael, I see why you have the impression of a false edge cut: the artist has not represented the sword in the right inclination and the hand cut away is not going in the proper direction.
This is likely a problem of perspective and representation of dynamics.

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Postby admin » 29 Jun 2006 23:29

I think it's quite clear - see my and James' replies Carlo.
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Postby Jeff Gentry » 30 Jun 2006 05:19

Gent's

Actualy if you look at the attacker, he is not using a sword he has a mace or club so he probably used an over hand swing without stepping, and the guy stepped left and drew the sword and took off his hand.

Make's perfect sense to me.


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Postby admin » 30 Jun 2006 11:00

He's using a type of mace/pick that you normally only find in Eastern Europe and parts of Asia Minor, which is pretty interesting in itself.
Yes he could have swung without stepping - that would be a bit weird in my opinion, especially with a top-heavy weapon, but certainly possible.
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Postby Anders Linnard » 30 Jun 2006 11:13

admin wrote:He's using a type of mace/pick that you normally only find in Eastern Europe and parts of Asia Minor, which is pretty interesting in itself.
Yes he could have swung without stepping - that would be a bit weird in my opinion, especially with a top-heavy weapon, but certainly possible.


Even more weird is that the sword fellow steps to the outside (left) and stops the blow with a cut that doesn't seem to shut the line of attack. I would feel more safe by making sure the sword gets in between me and the oncoming blow, since I am actually pulling up the sword at the same time. I would probably step to the right, giving me a little more time to get the sword out. Maybe it doesn't matter when your weapon is that much longer, but against a sword I would definately recomend it.

Not sure I am explaining what I mean in the best way possible, but you might get what I am trying to say anyway.
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Postby Carlo » 30 Jun 2006 13:29

In experimenting with impact weapons, me and my former practice partner came to the opinion that swinging can be done with or without stepping, depending on the range. Unlike swords that are dangerous all blade long, maces and clubs want to hit with the head (like la canne), sometimes you may strike going backwards to accomplish this. My pard preferred maces, I preferred axes, but this consideration applies to both, i suppose, saved for axes being easier to disarm if you mistakingly "give the pole".


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